torbarrie
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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2007 1:44:11 AM
In conclusion, the Bible is replete with solid evidence that the Holy Ghost/Spirit is God along with Jesus Christ,regardless if you use the KJV,NAS,or NIV.
Thanks for the wonderful contributions of those willing to defend the faith aginst the heresies of the Arians/watchtower.
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2007 1:32:55 PM
Yes indeed, torbarrie, good point, we need to pray for Jedidiah. He's a former Catholic who traded one central-authority, we'll-tell-you-what-the-Bible-says group for another. The Vatican for the Watchtower.
Let's pray he comes out of the Watchtower and to the Lord Jesus Christ, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9)".
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torbarrie
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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2007 12:16:14 AM
TO PGM!!
Love your Nov 11 reply. Praise God!
Jed's replies are like a little Chihuahua barking at your ankle.
If Jed really meant to live by Sola Scriptura he wouldn't write such drivel. Notice he doesn't quote Scripture to back his claims. Who does he think he is?
2 Timothy 3:16-17
ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Not just the few narrow tiresome passages the watchtower concentrates on.
THEREFORE, THE TRINITY IS DEFENSIBLE FROM SCRIPTURE.
PRAY FOR JEDIDIAH
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2007 6:48:46 PM
Jedidiah, let me put this as simply as I know how.
The NWT is a translation by Jehovah's Witnesses, for Jehovah's Witnesses, and about Jehovah's Witness theology.
As such it is a useful tool if someone wants to see what the WB&TS teaches.
Its only other justifiable use is by those inside the Jehovah's Witness organization, as its translation and theology are both peculiar to the WB&TS teachings.
When you quote from the NWT, it's not persuasive to anyone who's at all familiar with a non-JW bible.
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2007 12:32:31 AM
geekguy
Look, I know you are sincere in your attack on any religion which is not your own and which does not use the KJV. And I do feel sorry for feeling the need to square off with you about your errors; but you just keep making the same erroneous statements over and over. First thing you could improve in is state which Version of the NWT you are attacking.
Now, as for making a pretzel out of householders you should know that Jehovah's Witnesses are not paid to win debates. We consider ourselves in a life saving work. So I am not very impressed by your source which comes out of his corner slugging and does not acknowledge our view of our work as fulfilling the assignment to follow the command of Matthew 28:19, 20. "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
I do not think your evangelical resource is going to persuade many Witnesses to change by doing to us what he claims we do to others. I for one do not enjoy anyone trying to make a fool out of me.
You know, before we used the NWT we used the King James because it was more popular-and we grew greatly using the KJV. The sad fact was we were not doing anyone who had a KJV only attitude any favors by using the KJV. They did not like to see its Koine Greek manuscript from which it was mistranslated from.
And as for the recommendation to use the NIV or the NAS, you have gone on endlessly about the heresy of the NIV, and the NAS is not a complete Bible.
Try again using a non biased source. You won't find many; but I can come up with endless theologians who find the King James to be rank with error.
You and it misses much, geekguy. I have never heard you even speak about God's divine Sovereignty -a topic of prime concern in scripture. It is juat as today's text highlights.
The religions of Christendom generally claim to believe the Bible. However, they fail to agree on what it teaches. How different their condition is from that of Jehovah’s servants! Regardless of our national, cultural, or ethnic background, we worship the God we know by name. He is not some mysterious triune god. (Deuteronomy 6:4; Psalms 83:18; Mark 12:29) We are also aware that the paramount issue of God’s universal sovereignty is due for settlement and that by maintaining our integrity to him, each one of us is personally involved in that issue. We know the truth about the dead and are free of the morbid fear of a God who is said to torment humans in hellfire or consign them to purgatory. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Moreover, what a joy it is to know that we are not an accidental product of blind evolution! Rather, we are God’s creation, made in his own image just like Jesus was.—Genesis 1:26, 27; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Malachi 2:10.
Jedidiah
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2007 8:38:33 PM
Jedidiah, a translation (NWT) that the heretical Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (the JW equivalent of the Vatican) put out is hardly an authoritative source. See here for an overview of who "translated" the NWT and what their background was.
Although I disagree strongly with Bruce Metzger, if you accept his textual criticism approach and the Catholic manuscripts he works from (as Jedidiah and the WB&TS do), then you need to know what Bruce Metzger says about the NWT translation:
"a frightful mistranslation,” “erroneous,” “pernicious,” and “reprehensible.”
Jedidiah, if you want people not in the Jehovah's Witness organization to listen to you, try using another translation.
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2007 5:12:55 PM
geekguy
In your opening you quote Colossians 1:16; but you neglect Colossians 1:15 which precedes verse 16 and cannot be brushed aside. For verse 15 shows us that Jesus IS the 1st CREATION.
Now, you use the King James Version to teach verse 16, Please tell me how is it that a Translation which reads "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." Now if all thrones and dominions and principalities and powers were created by him that would mean that the nations which were in opposition to Almighty God prior to the flood as well as the principality of Bable, the dominion of False Religions, and power of Rome were all created by this creature called Jesus Christ.
Whereas now here is the context and proper Translation. And note how it also makes sense.
"9 That is also why we, from the day we heard [of it], have not ceased praying for YOU and asking that YOU may be filled with the accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension,
10 in order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing [him] as YOU go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God (compare John 17:3),
11 being made powerful with all power to the extent of his glorious might so as to endure fully and be long-suffering with joy,
12 thanking the Father who rendered YOU suitable for YOUR participation in the inheritance of the holy ones in the light.
13 He (Jehovah) delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love,
14 by means of whom (Jesus) we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.
15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
16 because by means of him (Jesus) all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.
Now, when the governments and principalities we read about are understood to be in connection with such dominions as the 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4 and the thrones of Matthew 19:28 (Theocratic rulership) we see that the scene is truly about the power of the Christ to reorganize the world in worshipers of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah and we cannot help but note than this verse 16 does not change the truth of verse 15: Jesus is a creature.
Yes, Jesus is a creature geekguy-a creature-Colossians 1:15
Jedidiah
[Edited by: Jedidiah at 11/18/2007 8:14:21 PM EST]
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Kyrie
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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2007 5:03:43 PM
Isaiah 6:3.
And one cried unto another, and said, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Is the LORD of Hosts: the whole earth Is Full of His Glory."
Numbers 6:22-27.
[the threefold Blessing]
["face" as an adjunct, change of noun, "for the whole Person"]
~
Father ~~~ Day; Son ~~~ sun; Holy Spirit ~~~ light
.
I John chapter 2: ...
But the Anointing, which ye Have Received of Him Abideth in you, and ye need not that any man Teach you: but as the Same Anointing Teacheth you of all things, and Is Truth, and Is no lie, and even as It Hath Taught you, [ye shall <--- OMIT] Abide in Him [or, "It"].
["Anointing" = "Unction" --- same as verse 20]
(KJV)
Dr. James Strong's Concordance and Lexicon
Hallelu-Yah, Hallelu-Yah, Praise the Lord!
Hallelu-Yah, Hallelu-Yah, Praise the Lord!
Come, Enter into the Holy of Holies with Me,
I Have Made the Way.
Come, Enter into the Holy of Holies with Me,
I Have Made the Way.
Chorus.
You must Be Holy as I Am Holy,
Let it all go.
You must Be Holy as I Am Holy,
Let it all go.
Chorus.
You were not Redeemed with things such as silver
And gold, but by My Blood.
You were not Redeemed with things such as silver
And gold, but by My Blood.
Chorus.
~
.
[Edited by: Kyrie at 11/18/2007 8:07:24 PM EST]
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2007 4:39:11 PM
Kyrie
In your mind only. I see it as an emphasized recognition of Jehova's Sovereignty. But you got the unity part right. God Almighty, Ho Theos, Sovereign, The God, each are terms which are applied to denote the exclusivity of "the only true God" of the Bible-the Father. (John 17:3)
Jedidiah
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Kyrie
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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2007 12:07:11 PM
Revelation 4:8.
And the Four Beasts had Each of Them six wings about Him; and They Were Full of Eyes WithIn: and They rest not day and night, saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy, LORD God Alimighty, Which Was, and Is, and Is to Come."
[a threefold Unity]
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geekguy
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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2007 9:41:07 AM
I love this topic. Thanks for starting it!
Speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible says "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Colossians 1:16)".
So the Lord Jesus Christ created everything. Now isn't there something at the early part... "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)".
So God created the Heaven and the Earth. But the Lord Jesus Christ created everything. Remember: if A is X, and B is X, and there's only one X, then A is B.
Who is the Saviour? "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour. (Isaiah 43:10-11)"
"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:21-22)"
The Bible says - there is only one God. And He alone is the Saviour. See further confirmation of this:
"Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me. (Hosea 13:4)"
OK so the Bible makes it clear, the Lord God is one God, there never has been and never will be another God. The Lord God is the Saviour, there is no other Saviour. But what about the Lord Jesus Christ, who is He?
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:10-12)"
Oh - Jesus Christ is the only Saviour. Hmm.
So let's summarize this: there is only one God. No other ever has been or ever will be formed. There is only one Saviour. Yet God is God and Saviour, and Jesus Christ is God and Saviour.
And it's neatly summed up by two verses in Titus: "But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (Titus 1:3-4)". There they both are, each is Saviour, but there is only one Saviour.
The Lord Jesus Christ is God.
AMEN!
[Edited by: geekguy at 11/18/2007 12:44:26 PM EST]
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Kyrie
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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2007 4:35:16 AM
St. John 1:1.
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was With God, and the Word Was God.
[St. John 1:3; St. John 17:5; I John 1:1; Ephesians 1:4; Proverbs 8:23; Psalms # 90:2]
~
St. John 8:58
.
[Edited by: Kyrie at 11/17/2007 7:40:16 AM EST]
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2007 7:21:03 PM
trinuclear
You indicate that perceiving the thoughts of men and healing men is reserved for a god. However, the Apostle Paul was adept at both.
"Acts 14:8-9 And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. This man heard Paul speaking, Paul observing him intently and seeing (Eidon) that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, “Stand up straight on your feet!” And he leaped and walked."-Acts 14:8-9. The word seeing is the word Eidon. Eidon is the aorist form used to supply that tense of horao, which means to perceive or as it is translated here seeing.
Obviously the Apostles of the Christ-sent forth Messiah-shared the abilities to perceive what was in the hearts of men and to answer their needs by healing them with the same power which God had poured out on his Messiah. Were all of these not ambassadors of God's glorious good news of salvation? Did these too not share in the gifts which the Christ partook of?
Jedidiah
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trinuclear
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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2007 2:25:42 AM
>>>Was Jesus telling them covertly that he was God by his healing works and by saying it is easier to say your sins are forgiven than to heal.?<<<
Yes He was. The text clearly shows that.
If Jesus were not God, then how ..... "when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them,"
The answer is clearly in front of you, if you have 'ears to hear'.
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2007 11:22:22 PM
Ah PGM
The gifts of a good credit rating?
But does the credit rating bestow the gifts or does the man or woman who is shrewd and frugal benefit their family.
God is the one who bestows the fruitage of the spirit he created for the good pleasure of the Christian family and His own joy in watching his children enjoy every good blessing.
"Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."-James 1:17.
Once again, John 17:3 says it all when Jesus prayed to his God (John 20:17) who also happens to be his Father, "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."-John 17:3
Yes. The Father, the God alone Jesus acknowledges as the only true God IS A GOD WITHOUT EQUAL.
And no rabbit you might pull out of your hat can trump John 17:3, the words of our Lord in worshipful prayer to his God and Father.
Or is Jesus his own Father as Satan would twist the minds of those who are unread in the words of the Christ-the sent forth Messiah and Son of God-a fact which is necessary for you to believe to be saved.
"To be sure, Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name."-John 20:31.
Nowhere does it read that one must believe in a Trinity to be saved but it most certainly does say you must believe Jesus is the sent forth Christ, the Son of God.
Jedidiah
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2007 6:27:48 PM
Another set of verses showing the H.S. is God....
1 Corinthians 12 speaks about thegifts of the Spirit. It's clear from the text that the Spirit was the giver of the gifts as shown here....
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; etc....
But then later in the text we revert to speaking to the fact that God was the giver and the author. ...
1Co 12:27 ¶ Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2007 10:11:21 PM
Trinuclear
Just because the Jews did not realize that God had given Jesus the power to heal and forgive sins does not mean Jesus was God. For they did not believe him to be such. And which is it easier to do?
Witness the words of the son of God:
"8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" — He said to the paralytic, 11 "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all-Mark 8-12
Now the Jews were glorifying God's Father because as they said they had never witnessed anything like this. Was Jesus telling them covertly that he was God by his healing works and by saying it is easier to say your sins are forgiven than to heal.?
If that were true, trinuclear, then the Apostles who also healed many sinners were also Gods by your reasoning.
Various Trinitarian concepts exist. Why? It is a man made doctrine. But generally the Trinity teaching is that in the Godhead there are three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; yet, together they are but one God. The doctrine says that the three are coequal, almighty, and uncreated, having existed eternally in the Godhead.
Jesus disproves the Tinity doctrine with a single worshipful prayer to his Heavenly Father whenn he call him "the only true God."-John 17:3
Jedidiah
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trinuclear
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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2007 4:36:12 AM
Jed, You are one of those who Jesus is speaking to in verse 6:
Mark 2:1-12
2 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you."
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" — He said to the paralytic, 11 "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, "We never saw anything like this!"
NKJV
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2007 6:42:47 PM
PGM
The Father, the so called 1st peRSon of the holy Trinity is, in Jesus' own words, "the only true God."-John 17:3 And in his words he is "my God."-John 20:17.
Is God Always Superior to Jesus?
JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.
In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.
Jesus Distinguished From God
TIME and again, Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called “Father.” In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, “You, the only true God.” (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.
The apostle Paul had no reservations about speaking of Jesus and God as distinctly separate: “For us there is one God, the Father, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.”-1 Corinthians 8:6. The apostle shows the distinction when he mentions “the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels.”-Timothy 5:21. Just as Paul speaks of Jesus and the angels as being distinct from one another in heaven, so too are Jesus and God.
Jesus’ words at John 8:17, 18 are also significant. He states: “In your own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” Here Jesus shows that he and the Father, that is, Almighty God, must be two distinct entities, for how else could there truly be two witnesses?
Jesus further showed that he was a separate being from God by saying: “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18, JB) So Jesus was saying that no one is as good as God is, not even Jesus himself. God is good in a way that separates him from Jesus.
God’s Submissive Servant
TIME and again, Jesus made statements such as: “The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing.” (John 5:19, The Holy Bible, by Monsignor R. A. Knox) “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”-John 6:38. “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.”-John 7:16. Is not the sender superior to the one sent?
This relationship is evident in Jesus’ illustration of the vineyard. He likened God, his Father, to the owner of the vineyard, who traveled abroad and left it in the charge of cultivators, who represented the Jewish clergy. When the owner later sent a slave to get some of the fruit of the vineyard, the cultivators beat the slave and sent him away empty-handed. Then the owner sent a second slave, and later a third, both of whom got the same treatment. Finally, the owner said: “I will send my son [Jesus] the beloved. Likely they will respect this one.” But the corrupt cultivators said: “‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours.’ With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him.”-Luke 20:9-16. Thus Jesus illustrated his own position as one being sent by God to do God’s will, just as a father sends a submissive son.
The followers of Jesus always viewed him as a submissive servant of God, not as God’s equal. They prayed to God about “thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, . . . and signs and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus.”—Acts 4:23, 27, 30.
God Superior at All Times
AT THE very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”-Matthew 3:16, 17. Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead.
Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.”-Luke 4:18. Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have.
Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23, JB) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”-Luke 22:42. To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup.”
Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.”-Luke 23:46. If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?
After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. If he were God, then Habakkuk 1:12 is wrong when it says: “O my God, my Holy One, you do not die.” But the Bible says that Jesus did die and was unconscious in the tomb. And who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.”-Acts 2:24. The superior, God Almighty, raised the lesser, his servant Jesus, from the dead.
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead.
Jesus Had Limited Knowledge
WHEN Jesus gave his prophecy about the end of this system of things, he stated: “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”-Mark 13:32. Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows. But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God.
Similarly, we read at Hebrews 5:8 that Jesus “learned obedience from the things he suffered.” Can we imagine that God had to learn anything? No, but Jesus did, for he did not know everything that God knew. And he had to learn something that God never needs to learn—obedience. God never has to obey anyone.
The difference between what God knows and what Christ knows also existed when Jesus was resurrected to heaven to be with God. Note the first words of the last book of the Bible: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him.”-Revelation 1:1. If Jesus himself were part of a Godhead, would he have to be given a revelation by another part of the Godhead—God? Surely he would have known all about it, for God knew. But Jesus did not know, for he was not God.
Jesus Continues Subordinate
IN HIS prehuman existence, and also when he was on earth, Jesus was subordinate to God. After his resurrection, he continues to be in a subordinate, secondary position.
Speaking of the resurrection of Jesus, Peter and those with him told the Jewish Sanhedrin: “God exalted this one [Jesus] . . . to his right hand.”-Acts 5:31. Paul said: “God exalted him to a superior position.”-Philippians 2:9. If Jesus had been God, how could Jesus have been exalted, that is, raised to a higher position than he had previously enjoyed? He would already have been an exalted part of the Trinity. If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, exalting him any further would have made him superior to God.
Paul also said that Christ entered “heaven itself, so that he could appear in the actual presence of God on our behalf.” (Hebrews 9:24, JB) If you appear in someone else’s presence, how can you be that person? You cannot. You must be different and separate.
Similarly, just before being stoned to death, the martyr Stephen “gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand.”-Acts 7:55. Clearly, he saw two separate individuals—but no holy spirit, no Trinity Godhead.
In the account at Revelation 4:8 to 5:7, God is shown seated on his heavenly throne, but Jesus is not. He has to approach God to take a scroll from God’s right hand. This shows that in heaven Jesus is not God but is separate from him.
In agreement with the foregoing, the Bulletin of the John Rylands Library in Manchester, England, states: “In his post-resurrection heavenly life, Jesus is portrayed as retaining a personal individuality every bit as distinct and separate from the person of God as was his in his life on earth as the terrestrial Jesus. Alongside God and compared with God, he appears, indeed, as yet another heavenly being in God’s heavenly court, just as the angels were—though as God’s Son, he stands in a different category, and ranks far above them.”—Compare Philippians 2:11.
The Bulletin also says: “What, however, is said of his life and functions as the celestial Christ neither means nor implies that in divine status he stands on a par with God himself and is fully God. On the contrary, in the New Testament picture of his heavenly person and ministry we behold a figure both separate from and subordinate to God.”
In the everlasting future in heaven, Jesus will continue to be a separate, subordinate servant of God. The Bible expresses it this way: “After that will come the end, when he [Jesus in heaven] will hand over the kingdom to God the Father . . . Then the Son himself will be subjected to the One who has subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.”—1 Corinthians 15:24, 28, NJB.
Jesus Never Claimed to Be God
THE Bible’s position is clear. Not only is Almighty God, Jehovah, a personality separate from Jesus but He is at all times his superior. Jesus is always presented as separate and lesser, a humble servant of God. That is why the Bible plainly says that “the head of the Christ is God” in the same way that “the head of every man is the Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:3) And this is why Jesus himself said: “The Father is greater than I.”—John 14:28.
The fact is that Jesus is not God and never claimed to be. This is being recognized by an increasing number of scholars. As the Rylands Bulletin states: “The fact has to be faced that New Testament research over, say, the last thirty or forty years has been leading an increasing number of reputable New Testament scholars to the conclusion that Jesus . . . certainly never believed himself to be God.”
The Bulletin also says of first-century Christians: “When, therefore, they assigned [Jesus] such honorific titles as Christ, Son of man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God, but that he did God’s work.”
Thus, even some religious scholars admit that the idea of Jesus’ being God opposes the entire testimony of the Bible. There, God is always the superior, and Jesus is the subordinate servant.
I have answered the foregoing retorts of yours in earlier posts. I suggest you re-read my comments. :-)
Go ahead. You can do it. Rah, rah, rah. I'll be cheering for you.
Jedidiah
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2007 4:26:46 PM
His Names
God
Acts 5:3-4
Lord
2 Cor. 3:18
Spirit
1 Cor. 2:10
Spirit of God
1 Cor. 3:16
Spirit of Truth
John 15:26
Eternal Spirit
Heb. 9:14
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Sins Against
Blasphemy
Matt. 12:31
Resist (Unbelief)
Acts 7:51
Insult
Heb. 10:29
Lied to
Acts 5:3
Grieved
Eph. 4:30
Quench
1 Thess. 5:19
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His Attributes
Eternal
Heb. 9:14
Omnipotent
Luke 1:35
Omnipresent
Psalm 139:7-10
Will
1 Cor. 12:11
Loves
Rom. 15:30
Speaks
Acts 8:29; 13:2
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Symbols of
Dove
Matt. 3:15
Wind
John 3:5
Fire
Acts 2:3
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Power in
Christ's Life
Conceived of
Matt. 1:18,20
Baptism
Led by
Luke 4:1
Filled with Power
Luke 4:14,18
Witness of Jesus
John 15:26
Raised Jesus
Rom. 8:11
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2007 4:18:27 PM
Some teach that the Holy Spirit is an active force like radar. They deny that He is alive, that He is a person. This is, of course, because they deny the Trinity. Yet, if the Holy Spirit is simply a force then...
Why is He called God (Acts 5:3-5)?
How is it that He can teach (John 14:26)?
How can He be blasphemed (Matt. 12:31,32)?
How can be the one who comforts (Acts 9:31)?
How is it possible for Him to speak (Acts 28:25)?
How then can He be resisted (Acts 7:51)?
How can He be grieved (Eph. 4:30)?
How can He help us in our weaknesses (Rom. 8:26)?
If the Holy Spirit is a force, then how is it possible that the above mentioned phenomena are attributed to Him? A force doesn't speak, teach, comfort, etc. nor can you blaspheme against a force.
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2007 3:47:57 PM
PGM
The matter is laid to rest quite pragmatically, actually. The holy spirit is spoken of always in the neuter except where grammar dictates otherwise with words which are not the holy spirit nor God's holy spirit. Few enough words?
Again, also, the spirit neither has a proper name nor is it portrayed in a scene in heaven alongside the Father and son.
PGM, The Bible, as we have established, neither teaches that the Holy Spirit is a person, nor does it mention that it is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. For that matter the Bible does not teach that anyone is a 1st nor 2nd person of a Trinity. This is all man made political dribble-to borrow an insult.
Is It Clearly a Bible Teaching?
IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God’s revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.
first-century believers accepted the Scriptures as the authentic revelation of God. It was the basis for their beliefs, the final authority. For example, when the apostle Paul preached to people in the city of Beroea, “they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.”—Acts 17:10, 11.
What did prominent men of God at that time use as their authority? Acts 17:2, 3 tells us: “According to Paul’s custom . . . he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references [from the Scriptures].”
Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying: “It is written.” “He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.”—Matthew 4:4, 7; Luke 24:27.
Thus Jesus, Paul, and first-century believers used the Scriptures as the foundation for their teaching. They knew that “all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”—2 Timothy 3:16, 17; see also 1 Corinthians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20, 21.
Since the Bible can ‘set things straight,’ it should clearly reveal information about a matter as fundamental as the Trinity is claimed to be. But do theologians and historians themselves say that it is clearly a Bible teaching?
“Trinity” in the Bible?
A PROTESTANT publication states: “The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.” (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.
The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word t??a? [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian.”
However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas—A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian’s words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: “But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology.”
Testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures
WHILE the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures (“Old Testament”) reveal?
The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: “Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.” And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament].”
Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: “The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the “Old Testament”] suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”—Italics ours.
An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments. Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.
Testimony of the Greek Scriptures
WELL, then, do the Christian Greek Scriptures (“New Testament”) speak clearly of a Trinity?
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: “Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.”
Jesuit Fortman states: “The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.”
The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.”
Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.”
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: “The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. ‘The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence’ [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth].”
Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: “To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it.”—Origin and Evolution of Religion.
Historian Arthur Weigall notes: “Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.
Taught by Early Christians?
DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:
“Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
“The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings.”—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.
What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught
THE ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ’s birth. What they taught is of interest.
Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is “other than the God who made all things.” He said that Jesus was inferior to God and “never did anything except what the Creator . . . willed him to do and say.”
Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the “One true and only God,” who is “supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other.”
Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called God “the uncreated and imperishable and only true God.” He said that the Son “is next to the only omnipotent Father” but not equal to him.
Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: “The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent.” He also said: “There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone.”
Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is “the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all,” who “had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before,” such as the created prehuman Jesus.
Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that “the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence,” and that “compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light.”
Summing up the historical evidence, Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: “The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.”
Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.
And save you attack on my use of many examples. Trinitarian triple tithing Pastors drown their flock with empty examples of so called Trinity proofs. At least you will find substance and truth here if you've an open mind.
You say you feel any rational person would look at the following and know that the bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit is a "FORCE". You once felt it was not necessary to be baptised in order to be saved due to what? Was it due to the fact that the thief on the cross was not baptised but was promised entry into paradise. Yet in what way did this promise entitle the thief from foregoing baptism once he was resurrected?
You feel. I think.
Your dribble again, PGM.
Jedidiah
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2007 4:43:32 AM
I feel that any rational person would look at the following and know that the bible does not teach that the Holy Spirit is a "FORCE" -- this is not rocket science nor a Star Wars sound bite. It does not take volumes of words to refute, the empirical evidence and numerous writings in the bible taken in context can not refute it's teachings.
Below taken from the following Link Blue Letter bible "Is The Holy Spirit A Person?"
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The Holy Spirit, to many people, is an enigma. Some see Him as an impersonal force or influence, some deny His very existence, and others are not certain who or what the Holy Spirit is. The Bible, as we have established, teaches that the Holy Spirit is a person, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity. By "person" we mean one who has his own identity or individuality as a rational being, conscious of his own existence. The fact that the Holy Spirit is a person can be observed in four ways: He has the characteristics of a person, He acts like a person, He is treated as a person, and He is the Third Person of the Trinity, and therefore, is personal.
Characteristics Of A Person
The Scriptures attribute to the Holy Spirit characteristics that only a person can possess. He is portrayed as a thinking being, an emotional being, and a volitional (choosing) being.
1. A Thinking Being
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit has the intellectual capacity to think:
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God (1 Corinthians 2:10).
The Holy Spirit thinks and reasons. These things imply personality.
2. An Emotional Being
The Holy Spirit not only thinks like a person. He has feelings like a person. He can give and receive love.
Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in your prayers to God for me (Romans 15:30).
He can be grieved:
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).
The Holy Spirit can be insulted:
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:29).
He responds emotionally the way that a person responds.
3. A Choosing Being
The Holy Spirit also has a will to choose:
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11).
These attributes are consistent with personhood. Therefore, we see that the characteristics ascribed to the Holy Spirit - thought, feelings, choice - are attributes of a person.
ACTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
The deeds that the Holy Spirit performs are deeds only a person can do.
1. Teaching
These things we also speak not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13).
2. Giving Guidance
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God (Romans 8:14).
3. Comforting
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send him to you (John 16:7 KJV).
4. Commanding
Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot" (Acts 8:29).
5. Giving Understanding
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak (John 16:13).
6. Speaking
As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them" (Acts 13:2).
These deeds attributed to the Holy Spirit are not the acts of an impersonal force; they are the acts of a person.
Treated As A Person
Whenever the Holy Spirit is encountered in a historical situation we discover that He is always treated as a person. The Bible records that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit.
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself" (Acts 5:3).
You can lie only to a person.
Stephen told the Sanhedrin that they were disobeying the Holy Spirit by resisting Him:
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you (Acts 7:51).
You do not disobey an impersonal force, you disobey a person.
On another occasion Simon Peter went to the house of Cornelius as the Holy Spirit directed:
While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold three men are seeking you" (Acts 10:19).
Consequently whenever we find the Holy Spirit in a historical narrative He is consistently treated as though He is a person, never as anything less.
Part Of The Godhead
The final reason that we conclude that the Holy Spirit is a person is that He is addressed as God. He is a member of the Godhead which consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus said:
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).
The Father and Son are personal beings and the Holy Spirit is treated in the same manner and assumed to be a person.
Blasphemed
Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit could be blasphemed:
Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men (Matthew 12:31).
Only God can be blasphemed. Thus, if the Holy Spirit is God and God is personal, then the Holy Spirit must be personal.
Conclusion
We conclude the following concerning the Holy Spirit:
1. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of a person.
2. The Spirit also performs the acts of a person.
3. The Holy Spirit is treated as a person.
4. The Holy Spirit is God, and therefore, by nature is personal.
[Edited by: PGM at 11/9/2007 7:46:26 AM EST]
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2007 4:20:48 AM
John 16:7-8 (KJV)
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send **him** unto you. And when **he** is come, **he** will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
{Emphasis added}
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A Christian cult's twist on the bible: Notice the gender of the Holy Spirit! Pretty hard to erase the truth and still have the bible make sense.
John 16:7-8 (NWT)
7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, It is for your benefit I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will by no means come to you; but if I do go my way, I will send **him** to you. 8 And when that one arrives **he** will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment:
[Edited by: PGM at 11/9/2007 7:20:52 AM EST]
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 3:50:01 PM
Note: I have been preparing a three part answer to what is inevitably going to be PGM's retort.
PART 1
The Holy Spirit—Third Person of Trinity or God’s Active Force?
“You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.”—Acts 1:8.
The scene is Jerusalem. The time late in May of the year (A.D.) 33. In obedience to the law of Moses more than a million Jews are crowding the city where Jehovah put his name to celebrate the feast of Pentecost. In one of the upper rooms of the city we see the eleven apostles gathered, together with 109 other disciples of Jesus, including his mother and his fleshly half brothers.
Then, “suddenly,” as Luke describes it, “there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible and were distributed to them, and one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.”—Acts 2:2-4.
With but very few exceptions the creeds of Christendom state that God’s holy spirit is the third person of a trinity, coequal, coeternal and cosubstantial with the Father and the Son. Bible dictionaries and religious encyclopedias go to great lengths to prove not only that the holy spirit is a person but that it is a divine person. An exception is the Unitarian creed, which holds the holy spirit to be merely “the influence of the Deity on the minds of his servants, . . . dwelling in the hearts of believers, as the source of their spiritual life.”—Dictionary of Religious Knowledge, Abbott.
While the consensus of the religious teaching of Christendom today may ascribe divinity to God’s holy spirit, such was not always the case. Note, for example, the words of Neander, of whom McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia states: “Universally conceded to be by far the greatest of ecclesiastical historians.” Though himself a trinitarian, he wrote: “In A.D. 380, great indistinctness prevailed among the different parties respecting this dogma so that a contemporary could say, ‘Some of our theologians regard the holy spirit simply as a mode of divine operation; others as a creature of God; others as God himself; others again, say that they know not which of the opinions to accept from their reverence for Holy Writ, which says nothing upon the subject.’”
Is God’s Word ambiguous on the subject of the holy spirit? Does it fail to indicate clearly whether God’s holy spirit is God himself, a creature of God or a mode of divine operation?
SPIRIT PERSONS
To understand what the Bible has to say about God’s holy spirit we must first note the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words translated “spirit,” namely, the Hebrew word ru'ahh and the Greek word pneu'ma. Both of these words have the meaning of “breath,” “blast” or “wind,” and are translated in various ways. The English word “pneumatic” comes from this Greek word pneu'ma, a pneumatic tire being a tire full of wind. While the term “Holy Ghost” occurs some ninety times in the King James and Douay versions, it is actually an Old English term, “ghost” being derived from the German word geist, meaning “spirit.” That is why the expression “Holy Ghost” does not appear in modern translations.
The term “spirit” is used in seven different ways in the Bible, and is applied both in connection to persons and to impersonal things. Obviously, a failure to distinguish between these seven senses of “spirit” would result in confusion on the subject. To ascertain the truth we must therefore heed Paul’s admonition: “Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright.”—2 Timothy. 2:15.
Why did Bible writers use the words ru'ahh and pneu'ma in seven different senses and apply them both to persons and to that which is without personality? Because all these senses have in common the two basic characteristics of wind, namely, invisibility and force. Note, for example, the sails of a boat driven by the wind. We cannot see the wind, yet the fact that the sails are bowed and the boat is being driven over the water shows a force at work. Thus we note a visible effect produced by an invisible force. Stressing these characteristics of “spirit” are the prophet’s words: “The Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses are flesh, and not spirit.”—Isa. 31:3, RSV.
Logically, the term “spirit” applies first of all to Jehovah God, for he is both invisible, no man ever having seen him, and mighty—almighty, in fact. (Exodus 6:3; 33:20) Yes, as Jesus said, “God is a Spirit”; and as Paul wrote, “Now Jehovah is the spirit.”—John 4:24; 2 Corinthians 3:17.
The Scriptures also speak of Jesus Christ as a spirit. “The first man Adam became a living soul,” quotes Paul, contrasting him with the last Adam, Jesus, who “became a life-giving spirit” upon his resurrection, “he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” And since he now dwells in “unapproachable light,” and is also known as “The mighty God,” the term “spirit” is also fittingly applied to him.—1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Timothy 6:16; Isaiah 9:6.
Angels, both good and bad, are also termed “spirits.” Thus at Hebrews 1:7, 1 Paul states that God “makes his angels spirits,” and that angels are “all spirits for public service.” These good angels are both invisible and powerful, as the Bible repeatedly shows. (2 Kings 6:16, 17; Isaiah 37:36) Wicked angels are also referred to as spirits, Jesus often expelling these spirits “with a word,” from persons possessed by them. And Paul speaks of Satan as “the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.” (Matthew 8:16; Ephesians 2:2) That these wicked spirits are also very powerful is apparent from Daniel 10:13, 20, where we are told that one of them was able to restrain one of God’s invisible messengers for twenty-one days.
“SPIRIT” USED IMPERSONALLY
One of the uses of “spirit” for that which is without personality is for the spirit or life force God put in man after forming him out of the dust of the ground, thereby causing man to live. Regarding this life force, we read at Genesis 7:22 that “all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life” died on account of the Flood. Or, “everything in which the breath of the force of life was active . . . died.” And the apostle John tells of seeing a vision in which certain witnesses had “the spirit of life” enter them, causing them to stand on their feet after they had been dead for three and a half days. (Revelation 11:11) At death “the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit [ru'ahh, not neph'esh or soul] returns to God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:7, RSV) This life force certainly is invisible and powerful, and is therefore fittingly termed “spirit.” Scientists are trying very hard to discover this life force or “life principle,” but Jehovah in his wisdom has seen fit to keep this secret to himself.—Psalms 36:9.
Another use of the term “spirit,” ru'ahh, pneu'ma, in the Scriptures for that which is without personality is its application to mental disposition. Thus we read: “Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.” And: “He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.” (Proverbs 16:18, 32, RSV) The mental disposition itself cannot be seen, but it has force that manifests itself in actions that are visible, as when one loses self-control and becomes red in the face and trembles with rage. Jesus used “spirit” in this sense when he counseled: “Keep on the watch and praying, that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit, of course, is willing, but the flesh is weak.” One’s mental disposition is therefore also fittingly termed “spirit.”—Matthew 26:41.
Another sense in which the term “spirit” is applied to impersonal things is to “inspired utterances.” A prophecy inspired by God is an inspired utterance or expression, and so the prophecy when quoted is properly referred to as the “spirit” talking. Thus Paul says that “the inspired utterance [spirit: footnote] says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith.”—1 Timothy 4:1.
The Devil and his agents also inspire utterances, although such are not prophetic. Thus a line of Communist propaganda issued as news is modernly termed an “inspired statement.” Satan’s present worldwide propaganda campaign against Jehovah’s kingdom is pictured as “three unclean inspired expressions,” or “unclean spirits,” resembling frogs, that are gathering all nations to Armageddon. (Revelation 16:13, 14, 16,) The apostle John warns Christians to be on guard against being deceived by the wrong kind of inspired expressions: “Do not believe every inspired expression [spirit], but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” The very fact that John here associates “spirit” with false prophets shows that it refers to what these prophets say and not to spirit creatures. As humans we cannot make trial of spirit creatures, but we can try the expressions inspired by spirits to see whether they are true or not. Since such ideas are in themselves invisible and also can exert a powerful force upon men’s minds, they are properly termed “spirits.”—1 John 4:1.
The seventh and remaining sense of the term “spirit” is its use as “holy spirit,” which trinitarian translators usually render with capital letters and precede with the definite article the, as “The Holy Spirit.” According to the Athanasian Creed, the earliest creed to explicitly teach the trinity as it is understood today, therefore the one most relied upon by trinitarians, the “Holy Spirit,” or the “Holy Ghost,” is a member of the trinity, uncreated, almighty, incomprehensible, a Person, a Lord and a God, “the glory equal, the majesty coeternal” with God the Father. A clergyman may deny the inspiration of the Bible, that Jesus’ blood cleanses us from our sins, that Jesus performed miracles and was raised from the dead, and still be considered a good Christian; but let him deny the trinity and he would at once be branded as a heretic. Says the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia regarding this teaching: “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion.
Let's read more about this central teaching of the majority of Christendom's false religions.
Jedidiah
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 3:47:53 PM
PART 2
HOLY SPIRIT NEITHER A PERSON NOR A GOD
If the holy spirit is equal with Jehovah God, as claimed by the Athanasian Creed, and if the trinity is the central teaching of the Christian religion, as claimed by The Catholic Encyclopedia, should we not expect these things to be plainly stated in so many words in the Bible? And should this not especially be the case in view of the fact that it is stated that the trinity teaching is “of all revealed truths” “the most impenetrable to reason,” and yet salvation depends upon its acceptance? The fact that the Word of God does not explicitly mention, explain or teach a trinity is in itself strong proof that the trinity teaching is false. And this is also borne out by what the Bible teaches regarding the holy spirit.
Yes, how could the holy spirit be equal with Jehovah the Father when it is given such a secondary position in the Scriptures? Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit. Why not, if the holy spirit is equal to the Father and the Son in glory, power, etc.? The creed may state that unless we believe that the holy spirit is equal to God we shall perish, but Jesus, in giving us the rule for life, does not even mention the holy spirit: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water. To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person? Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person? Besides, Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matthew 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41.
That the holy spirit is without personality is also indicated by the fact that it has no distinctive name. God, the Creator, has many distinctive appellations. His name is Jehovah, and he only is “The God,” or “The [true] God,” he only is the “Most High” and the “Almighty.” He is thus distinctly distinguished from other gods or mighty ones. Likewise with his Son, Jesus Christ. There is only one by that name, only one “only-begotten Son,” only one “First-born,” only one Logos or “Word.”
But not so with the holy spirit. Jehovah, Christ and the faithful angels are all holy spirits. Is the holy spirit “The holy spirit”? If so, in what way does he excel Jehovah and Christ either as respects being a spirit or being holy? And more than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.” All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judges 3:10; Matthew 3:16; Acts 2:18; Philippians 1:19.
And note still another point, that of location. The Bible tells us that God dwells in heaven, that he holds court there. Also that Jesus in his prehuman existence was rejoicing in his Father’s presence, that he came to earth to perform special missions, especially at the time he came as a man, and that he has now returned to heaven. Where was or where is the holy spirit now if it is a person? Did “he” come down upon Jesus at Jordan and then remain, or return and then come again at Pentecost? Is “he” now in heaven with God and Christ, or is “he” scattered throughout the earth wherever Christ’s followers are to be found?
The fact is that the truth about the holy spirit has been beclouded by the prejudices of Bible translators. Their use of capital letters cannot be used to prove the holy spirit is a person. Why not? Because at the time the Scriptures were written proper and common nouns were not thus distinguished from each other. The same is true regarding their adding the definite article the before holy spirit in some hundred instances where the Bible writers had not done so. To omit the definite article seemed disrespectful to such Bible translators but not to the Bible writers. Thus Paul wrote that God’s kingdom meant “peace and joy with holy spirit,” not “with the holy spirit.” And Peter wrote that God’s servants spoke, being “borne along by holy spirit,” not “by the holy spirit.”—Romans 14:17; 2 Peter 1:21.
Let's now consider objections.
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 3:46:41 PM
PART 3:
CONSIDERING OBJECTIONS
But perhaps at this point a firm believer in the trinity will object, asking: ‘Does not the Bible in various ways indicate that God’s holy spirit is a person? And did not the early church fathers believe the holy spirit to be a divine person?’ Since Jesus warned of a falling away and Paul and others told of an apostasy already at work in their day, it follows that the a few of these early “church fathers” could have been mistaken; and, in seeking a reputation among the early christians these seem to have pushed their point until the opportune time on the world scene came foward. Enter the sudden conversion and rise to dominance of theImperial Church of Rome However, personality was not always ascribed to God’s holy spirit. Justin Martyr believed that “the holy spirit was an influence or mode of operation of the Deity.” Hippolytus, who according to The Catholic Encyclopedia was the “most important theologian and the most prolific religious writer of the Roman Church in the pre-Constantinian era,” in his writings “decidedly ascribes no personality to the Holy Spirit.” And as we have already noted (paragraph 5, Part 1), there was decided difference of opinion as to the nature of the holy spirit in the fourth century. That is why we read that “though Basil of Caesarea [late fourth-century theologian] wished to teach the divinity of the holy spirit in his church, he only ventured to introduce it gradually,” because of the strong opposition to this novel teaching.—History of Christian Dogma, Neander.
So early church history cannot be used to prove the trinitarian view of the holy spirit. And neither can the fact that at times the personal pronoun is used in connection with the holy spirit prove the holy spirit is a divine person or even a creature. For example: Jesus said he would send his apostles the Comforter, Helper or Paraclete, the “spirit of the truth.” Since the Greek word par·a'cle·tos is in the masculine gender, it was mere grammatic custom for Jesus also to use personal pronouns when referring to the holy spirit in this capacity or activity. This promised Helper came at Pentecost.—John 15:26.
But, on the other hand, we find Jesus repeatedly using impersonal pronouns when referring to God’s holy spirit, a most disrespectful thing to do if the holy spirit were the third person of a trinity, coequal and cosubstantial with Jehovah God himself. “The spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.” (John 14:17) True, some translations use the personal pronouns here, but since the original Greek has impersonal pronouns, such translators must have allowed their religious prejudices to influence their translations. For a similar instance note Romans 8:26, where the holy spirit is referred to by the pronoun “himself” in some translations (RSV, Dy), and by “itself” in others (NWT, AV, AT, Ro, EDV).
In view of the fact that we find the nation of Israel and God’s universal organization and the Christian congregation repeatedly referred to in the Scriptures under the symbol of a woman, it should not surprise us that at times the part played by the holy spirit is personalized. But if the holy spirit were the third person of the trinity, equal to God and Christ in glory and honor as claimed by the creeds, could we imagine the Scriptures referring to the holy spirit as “it”?
However, someone may ask, How can an impersonal spirit be spoken of as speaking, teaching, forbidding and ordaining? And what about God and the holy spirit being used interchangeably, as when we read that God said a certain thing and then again that it was said by the holy spirit? Besides, do we not read that Ananias lied to God and then again that he lied to the holy spirit? Does this not further prove that God and the holy spirit are one, members of a trinity?
ILLUSTRATING HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT OPERATES
In considering the foregoing question, doubtless the use of illustrations will be helpful, even as the greatest Teacher that ever lived, Jesus, found to be the case. The holy spirit has been likened to wind. In certain respects it can also be likened to electricity. It also serves for illumination, as a means of communication, and represents a powerful force that can accomplish great things. We cannot tell whether a person is filled with the holy spirit merely by looking at him, even as we cannot tell whether a battery or a “third rail” is charged with electricity merely by looking at it. And even as electricity is used by certain governments to execute criminals, so Jehovah has at times used his holy spirit to execute the wicked, as in the case of Ananias and his wife Sapphira.—Acts 5:1-11.
And to use another illustration: Today policemen and soldiers keep in touch with their superiors by means of radio. Their officers send messages that instruct, command, forbid, as the case may be, by which the men in the field or on duty are maneuvered. It might be said that the radio did all this in that it was the agency used. So likewise Jehovah God, by means of his holy spirit, both through his Word and in addition thereto, speaks to, instructs and directs his servants. Thus we read: “These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we combine spiritual matters with spiritual words.”—1 Corinthians 2:13.
The same holds true regarding the holy spirit’s ordaining or making appointments of overseers in the Christian congregation. It does so by means of human instrumentalities. Thus we not only read of Paul saying “the holy spirit has appointed you overseers,” but also that Paul left Titus in Crete ‘to correct matters and to make appointments.’ In that Titus and others made such appointments by reason of the wisdom and authority given them by God’s holy spirit, it can be said that such appointments were made by the holy spirit.—Acts 20:28; Titus 1:5.
Then again, God’s imparting knowledge of his will to his servants by means of his holy spirit in times past may be likened to a newscast over the radio regarding a statement made by the chief of state. It would be correct to say that the radio said it, that a certain news commentator said it or that the chief of state said it. Such expressions are common and no confusion results. But because God’s Word at one place states that God said a certain thing and in another place that the holy spirit said it is taken by trinitarians to argue that God and the holy spirit are members of a trinity or one God. Such a strained inference merely points up the weakness of the trinitarian position. The Bible’s testimony is simple and plain, not mysterious. It shows that God spoke the words in the first place and that his faithful servants on earth received them by means of the holy spirit.—2 Peter 1:21.
The same reasoning can be applied to Peter’s words to Ananias. In that Peter was enlightened by the holy spirit, Ananias in lying to Peter was lying to the holy spirit; and in that Peter represented God and spoke for Him, Ananias in lying to Peter was also lying to God.—Acts 5:1-11.
Jehovah's Christian Witnesses need not use cut and paste, PGM (though I'll grant most of this information wass taken from the 1957 Watchtower) for the holy spirit works closely with our powers of memory for holy scripture, and reasoning with people as we stop at their doors without our libraries as we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God.—2 Corinthians 10:5.
Jedidiah
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 12:40:17 PM
Genesis 6:3 ¶ And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (KJV)
"MY" Spirit. God Father = God Spirit = GOD
Now the real application is what is important in this. When man refuses the testimony of the Holy Spirit, when we refuse to hear what God is telling us and those things that testify to God's nature -- we are rejecting Him.
As the bible clearly teaches, God is longsuffering - meaning - that He is so patient that He will wait for a considerable amount of time. However, like Pharaoh who hardened his heart when God was telling Him to let His people go, God will eventually harden YOUR heart in your ways.
Consider this, continual denial of the LORD Jesus Christ, as testified to YOU by the Holy Spirit, will eventually lead to God allowing you to go your own way and no longer seek after you. That's horrible!
While the Spirit is calling YOU -- Yield to what He is telling you. Your eternity is in jeopardy!
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 12:30:31 PM
Hebrew 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (NIV)
How do you insult a force? This makes sense if it's God.
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 12:25:54 PM
I suppose I should have posted it.
Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
And the reason this is true is that the Comforter speaks of Jesus. To deny Jesus is God as the Holy Spirit attests to is to call the Holy Spirit a Liar and in rejecting Christ, you have rejected God plan of redemption.
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 10:37:52 AM
PGM
Now, regarding Ananias and Saphira and lying to the holy spirit I will repost my post to Torbarrie.
Remember that this was written in Koine Greek. Understanding that the holy spirit was God's holy spirit would have affected the mind's eye of the audience as it read along with the help of the 1st century evangelizers. Certainly the evangelizers would have described the relief work that was underway and being blessed by God's spirit. So one needs to take the part about lying to God's spirit in the sense which it was meant. Ananias and Saphira knew that God was blessing his work with a spirit of holiness in the sense of fellow sharing. Yet these two used the opportunity to glow in the eyes of the congregation by demonstrating a false message of generosity, albeit they earned much more than they said they gained by the sale of their property yet gave less to the charity work by claiming to have earned less than they did.
You and other Trinitarians have been taught to assume only that in lying in relation to a charity work empowered by God's Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit IS God himself. Will the possession of God become his equal. Never may that be. And that is not the case as the word spirit at Acts 5:3, 4 is neuter. In fact the word spirit in connection with God's holy spirit is always neuter in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It is a possession or special power of God's holiness; but it itself is NOT GOD!
The only time a masculine reference is ascribed to the spirit is when it is called the Comforter. Yet the meaninfulness of any attempt to ascribe personality to the Holy Spirit fades when one realizes that the greek word for comfort is always masculine. Let's look closer.
The Holy Spirit—God’s Active Force
ACCORDING to the Trinity doctrine, the holy spirit is the third person of a Godhead, equal to the Father and to the Son. As the book Our Orthodox Christian Faith says: “The Holy Spirit is totally God.”
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word most frequently used for “spirit” is ru'ach, meaning “breath; wind; spirit.” In the Greek Scriptures, the word is pneu'ma, having a similar meaning. Do these words indicate that the holy spirit is part of a Trinity?
An Active Force
THE Bible’s use of “holy spirit” indicates that it is a controlled force that Jehovah God uses to accomplish a variety of his purposes. To a certain extent, it can be likened to a possession or special power of God's holiness, a force that can be adapted to perform a great variety of operations.
At Genesis 1:2 the Bible states that “God’s active force [“spirit” (Hebrew, ru'ach)] was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.” Here, God’s spirit was his active force working to shape the earth.
God uses his spirit to enlighten those who serve him. David prayed: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Your spirit [ru'ach] is good; may it lead me in the land of uprightness.” (Psalm 143:10) When 70 capable men were appointed to help Moses, God said to him: “I shall have to take away some of the spirit [ru'ach] that is upon you and place it upon them.”—Numbers 11:17.
Bible prophecy was recorded when men of God were “borne along by holy spirit [Greek, from pneu'ma].” (2 Peter 1:20, 21) In this way the Bible was “inspired of God,” the Greek word for which is The·o'pneu·stos, meaning “God-breathed.” (2 Timothy 3:16) And holy spirit guided certain people to see visions or to have prophetic dreams.—2 Samuel 23:2; Joel 2:28, 29; Luke 1:67; Acts 1:16; 2:32, 33.
The holy spirit impelled Jesus to go into the wilderness after his baptism. (Mark 1:12) The spirit was like a fire within God’s servants, causing them to be energized by that force. And it enabled them to speak out boldly and courageously.—Micah 3:8; Acts 7:55-60; 18:25; Romans 12:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:19.
By his spirit, God carries out his judgments on men and nations. (Isaiah 30:27, 28; 59:18, 19) And God’s spirit can reach everywhere, acting for people or against them.—Psalm 139:7-12.
‘Power Beyond Normal’
God’s spirit can also supply “power beyond what is normal” to those who serve him. (2 Corinthians 4:7) This enables them to endure trials of faith or to do things they could not otherwise do.
For example, regarding Samson, Judges 14:6 relates: “The spirit of Yahweh seized on him, and though he had no weapon in his hand he tore the lion in pieces.” (JB) Did a divine person actually enter or seize Samson, manipulating his body to do what he did? No, it was really “the power of the LORD [that] made Samson strong.”—TEV.
The Bible says that when Jesus was baptized, holy spirit came down upon him appearing like a dove, not like a human form. (Mark 1:10) This active force of God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and raise the dead. As Luke 5:17 says: “The Power of the Lord [God] was behind his [Jesus’] works of healing.”—JB.
God’s spirit also empowered the disciples of Jesus to do miraculous things. Acts 2:1-4 relates that the disciples were assembled together at Pentecost when “suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, . . . and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.”
So the holy spirit gave Jesus and other servants of God the power to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
Not a Person
ARE there not, however, Bible verses that speak of the holy spirit in personal terms? Yes, but note what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman says about this in The Triune God: “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person.”
In the Scriptures it is not unusual for something to be personified. Wisdom is said to have children. (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are called kings. (Romans 5:14, 21) At Genesis 4:7 The New English Bible (NE) says: “Sin is a demon crouching at the door,” personifying sin as a wicked spirit crouching at Cain’s door. But, of course, sin is not a spirit person; nor does personifying the holy spirit make it a spirit person.
Similarly, at 1 John 5:6-8 (NE) not only the spirit but also “the water, and the blood” are said to be “witnesses.” But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
In harmony with this is the Bible’s general usage of “holy spirit” in an impersonal way, such as paralleling it with water and fire. (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8) People are urged to become filled with holy spirit instead of with wine. (Ephesians 5:18) They are spoken of as being filled with holy spirit in the same way they are filled with such qualities as wisdom, faith, and joy. (Acts 6:3; 11:24; 13:52) And at 2 Corinthians 6:6 holy spirit is included among a number of qualities. Such expressions would not be so common if the holy spirit were actually a person.
Then, too, while some Bible texts say that the spirit speaks, other texts show that this was actually done through humans or angels. (Matthew 10:19, 20; Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Hebrews 2:2) The action of the spirit in such instances is like that of radio waves transmitting messages from one person to another far away.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.
The “Helper”
JESUS spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper,” and he said it would teach, guide, and speak. (John 14:16, 26; 16:13) The Greek word he used for helper (pa·ra'kle·tos) is in the masculine gender. So when Jesus referred to what the helper would do, he used masculine personal pronouns. (John 16:7, 8) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for spirit (pneu'ma) is used, the neuter pronoun “it” is properly employed.
Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’”
So when the Bible uses masculine personal pronouns in connection with pa·ra'kle·tos at John 16:7, 8, it is conforming to rules of grammar, not expressing a doctrine.
No Part of a Trinity
VARIOUS sources acknowledge that the Bible does not support the idea that the holy spirit is the third person of a Trinity. For example:
The Catholic Encyclopedia: “Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person.”
Catholic theologian Fortman: “The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power.”
The New Catholic Encyclopedia: “The O[ld] T[estament] clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person . . . God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly.” It also says: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.”—Italics ours.
A Catholic Dictionary: “On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power.”
Hence, neither the Jews nor the early Christians viewed the holy spirit as part of a Trinity. That teaching came centuries later. As A Catholic Dictionary notes: “The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362 . . . and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381”—some three and a half centuries after holy spirit filled the disciples at Pentecost!
No, the holy spirit is not a person and it is not part of a Trinity. The holy spirit is God’s active force that he uses to accomplish his will. It is not equal to God but is always at his disposition and subordinate to him.
Jedidiah
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 10:24:01 AM
And another verse for the thread.
I read last night showing that Peter understood the nature of the trinity even though there are several cults that try to argue that it's man-made.
1 Peter 1:2
Elect
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father(1),
through sanctification of the Spirit(2),
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ(3):
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[Edited by: PGM at 11/8/2007 1:25:46 PM EST]
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 10:16:09 AM
PGM
I find your argument presumptuous and shallow. It is presumptuous because YOU dare call another religion a cult whereas you yourself are a member of Christendom and its vast collection of heresies. Your argument, too, is shallow because it is obviously untrue. One can blaspheme a child's understanding of holiness and thereby destroy his or her spirituality. Is that a sin easily forgiven. Undoubtably not. Yet what has been blasphemed is not a person. It is a person's understanding. And yet I maintain that this great sin would be a sin against the holy spirit.
An unrepentant sin is also an unforgivable sin against the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said every sin against the son of man would be forgiven. But why then did he say that "The Son of Man is going to die as the Scriptures say he will. But how horrible it will be for that person who betrays the Son of Man. It would have been better for that person if he had never been born."-Mark 14:21.
Will the betrayer of the Son of God be forgiven? If not why not? Answer: It is a sin against the holy spirit with which Jehovah filled the life of Jesus at his baptism. So one can sin unforgivably against a holy power by interfering with that power's work. Yet, Saul (Paul) interfered with the actions of the holy spirit upon the congregations and he was forgiven. Why? He was truly repentant. And the Father saw fit to put Paul to work in his vineyard and not destroy him.
What is even more importantly noted however is that the Bible states that “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."-Matthew 12:31, 32.
Why is this even more important than the foregoing? Because this scripture is stating that sinning against the holy spirit is, in God sense of Divine Justice worse than sinning against his own Son. And therefore either both the western and eastern Trinities are incorrect due to the fact that when it states that none are before nor after the other this scripture counters that mandate by showing that the Holy Spirit is more revered than the Son- proving it a doctrine of error- or Jesus and the holy spirit are not of the same substance and we are not comparing apples to apples; but, again we are proving the Trinity (It is proving itself) a doctrine of error due to their inequality. However if we view Jesus as a creation we see it is the holiness of Jesus that is important and not the man. In this view we too note that the holiness is the power of God and you just don't stop God. So all things fall into place nicely when with Colossians 1:15, where it shows Jesus is a creation similar to you and I only far grander due to occupying a more holy position before God as God's high priest.
Indeed the spirit can act with deliberateness. It is after all, as the Bible states emphatically, God's holy spirit and is directed by God Almighty, who in turn directs, Jesus, his High Priest.
"For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,” 12 as he says: “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of [the] congregation I will praise you with song.” 13 And again: “I will have my trust in him.” And again: “Look! I and the young children, whom Jehovah gave me.”
"14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things, that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil; 15 and [that] he might emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives. 16 For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting Abraham’s seed. 17 Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test."-Hebrews 2:14-18
No. There is no Trinity. But we do have a God whose holy spirit works with his High Priest to bring about our salvation.
Jedidiah
[Edited by: Jedidiah at 11/8/2007 1:21:44 PM EST]
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 7:58:12 AM
One other scripture shows that the man can lie to God, not His power, but Him.
Peter speaking to Ananias
Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Have any of you lied to you Tie this morning? or what about you front door? Driveway? ? ? ? ? You can only lie to a being, something that knows right from wrong, that grieves, that has emotion.
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2007 4:19:49 AM
The argument that the Holy Spirit is NOT a power or force but is a “Being” is demonstrated below in that He is described as having characteristics that only “Beings” have.
There are several cults that deny the deity of the Holy Spirit, in essence, blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Which is yet another proof of His deity – because you can not blaspheme a “Power”, you can only blaspheme God). The Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is God; this is yet another denial by several of these cults and the primary reason why they are not Christian.
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A being has characteristics that make it unique from inanimate objects.
A person or being has:
1) A will
A singularly unique characteristic that is assigned to a person / being is that of a will. A will is more than just instinct driven reflexes but is a characteristic that is driven by reasoning, knowledge, or desire.
--Searching for the intent of knowing:
1 Co 2:10-11 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit **searcheth** all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
--Helping, searching, and acting is a deliberate act:
Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints acCording to the will of God.
--Giving as He pleases the Spirit does His own “Will”
1 Corinthians 12:8-11 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
2) Emotion
We can no more make my car upset then I could make my clothes disappointed at my poor fashion sense. But being that God is a being, we can see that He indeed has emotion… a unique characteristic.
Eph 4:30 And **grieve** not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
3) Knowledge
The H.S. searches (With a willful intent) the knowledge of God. A power or object does not “Know” anything. The act of seeking knowledge is not a trait assigned to inanimate objects.
1 Co 2:10-11 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God **knoweth** no man, but the Spirit of God.
4) Is expressed in Gender:
The Holy Spirit is expressed in the Male gender some 15-16 times, not as a neutral gender like a lamp or Couch, but as a person.
One example was previously given in the posts below.
--To all who would SEEK God, seek Him with your heart and He will be found. It doesn't take a rocket science degree or an in-depth degree in Greek to see the character and attributes of God. Read the bible simply, because that's what God intended for it's use.
***Only the scriptures were copied, all other rational reasoning was my own as I have no need to have another do my thinking for me.***
[Edited by: PGM at 11/8/2007 7:22:53 AM EST]
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2007 1:49:27 PM
PGM
You write: "Take the JW dribble to another person, you're wasting your time and I won't hear it."
Why PGM, it is obvious that have heard me (figuratively speaking - you know, like the Trinity proofs you use) due to the fact that you responded to what I wrote, albeit your own response was dribbling with dribble. For you respond with a grammatical argument from the English language without naming your Translation and therefore is useless owing to the Fact that the text was not so written in Greek grammar. Indeed, you cannot show me one example in Koine Greek nor Aramaic where the term holy spirit is masculine. And that argument is by no means dribble.
Some individual texts that refer to the holy spirit (“Holy Ghost,” KJ) might seem to indicate personality. For example, the holy spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek, pa·ra'kle·tos; “Comforter,” KJ; “Advocate,” JB, NE) that ‘teaches,’ ‘bears witness,’ ‘speaks’ and ‘hears.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) But other texts say that people were “filled” with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) These latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holy spirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. (See also pages 380, 381, under the heading “Spirit.”)
The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit. (See also Revelation 7:10; 22:1, 3.) Where is this Holy Spirit positioned in the final throne scene-or in any scene?
The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.
John does not speak of God when he speaks of Jesus but he plainly speaks publicly of the son of God.
"To be sure, Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name."-John 20:30, 31.
Your dribble.
Jedidiah
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2007 3:45:26 AM
"Male gender was not ascribed to the Holy Spirit."
-->Right off that bat this statement simply shuts the conversation down being that it's not true. I've never found that Jehovah Witness's really told, or knew, the truth and this is apparently of no exception.
---------------------------------
John 14:26
Whom (ho). Grammatical neuter, but "whom" is correct translation. The Father will send the Holy Spirit (Joh 14:16; Lu 24:49; Ac 2:33), but so will the Son (Joh 15:26; 16:7) as Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit upon the disciples (Joh 20:22). There is no contradiction in this relation of the Persons in the Trinity (the Procession of the Holy Spirit). Here the Holy Spirit (full title as in Mr 3:29; Mt 12:32; Lu 12:10) is identified with the Paraclete. He (ekeinos). Emphatic demonstrative pronoun and masculine like paraklêtos. Shall teach you all things (humas didaxei panta). The Holy Spirit knows "the deep things of God" (1Co 2:10) and he is our Teacher in the Dispensation of the Holy Spirit of both new truth (verse Joh 14:25) and old. Bring to your remembrance (hupomnêsei humas). Future active indicative of hupomimnêskô, old verb to remind, to recall, here only in this Gospel (cf. 3Jo 1:10; 2Ti 2:14) and with two accusatives (person and thing). After pentecost the disciples will be able better to recall and to understand what Jesus had said (how dull they had been at times) and to be open to new revelations from God (cf. Peter at Joppa and Caesarea).
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See, I can copy and past just like you(!) and I don't need a group of lying pseudo-Greek scholars to re-write my bible to convince me. Take the JW dribble to another person, you're wasting your time and I won't hear it. I'm a child of God and know the truth, JW's are not as evidence by their beliefs which deny Christ's deity and incarnation in the flesh. The bible speaks against your kind; the JW's.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
And John here speaks of -GOD-:
1 John 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
[Edited by: PGM at 11/7/2007 6:53:08 AM EST]
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2007 4:07:16 PM
PGM
Male gender was not ascribed to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is always in the neuter. Ever wonder why?
You write:"So many words, so little application of wisdom. The scriptures are very easy to understand."
Then why can you not understand that a word like "spirit", which so often appears in union with the possessive word "God's" means that the neuter spirit-a force belonging to the Father and depicted so often as God's holy spirit-is not a person?
I am certain that you would like this topic sheltered from logical analysis. By all means. Move it your opinion from analysis. If this teaching was conclusive it woud need no support. It would be upheld by its own inarguable proposition just as John 17:3 is upheld.
The Father, whom Jesus worships (John 20:17) is "the only true God."
"Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."-John 17:1-3.
Jedidiah
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2007 12:55:38 PM
"The only time a masculine reference is ascribed to the spirit is when it is called the Comforter."
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,...
If male gender is assigned to The Comforter, so be it, He's male. This thread is not actually a debate and I'd be happy to see it moved to the Christianity forum!
So many words, so little application of wisdom. The scriptures are very easy to understand.
[Edited by: PGM at 11/6/2007 3:59:01 PM EST]
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Jedidiah
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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2007 10:16:49 AM
torbarrie
You only assume that in lying in relation to a charity work empowered by God's Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit IS God. That cannot be as the word spirit at Acts 5:3, 4 is neuter. In fact the word spirit in connection with God's holy spirit is always neuter in the Christian Greek Scriptures. It is a possession or special power of God's holiness; but it itself is NOT GOD!
The only time a masculine reference is ascribed to the spirit is when it is called the Comforter. Yet the meaninfulness of any attempt to ascribe personality to the Holy Spitit fades when one realizes that the greek word for comfort is always masculine. Let's look closer.
The Holy Spirit—God’s Active Force
ACCORDING to the Trinity doctrine, the holy spirit is the third person of a Godhead, equal to the Father and to the Son. As the book Our Orthodox Christian Faith says: “The Holy Spirit is totally God.”
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word most frequently used for “spirit” is ru'ach, meaning “breath; wind; spirit.” In the Greek Scriptures, the word is pneu'ma, having a similar meaning. Do these words indicate that the holy spirit is part of a Trinity?
An Active Force
THE Bible’s use of “holy spirit” indicates that it is a controlled force that Jehovah God uses to accomplish a variety of his purposes. To a certain extent, it can be likened to a possession or special power of God's holiness, a force that can be adapted to perform a great variety of operations.
At Genesis 1:2 the Bible states that “God’s active force [“spirit” (Hebrew, ru'ach)] was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.” Here, God’s spirit was his active force working to shape the earth.
God uses his spirit to enlighten those who serve him. David prayed: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God. Your spirit [ru'ach] is good; may it lead me in the land of uprightness.” (Psalm 143:10) When 70 capable men were appointed to help Moses, God said to him: “I shall have to take away some of the spirit [ru'ach] that is upon you and place it upon them.”—Numbers 11:17.
Bible prophecy was recorded when men of God were “borne along by holy spirit [Greek, from pneu'ma].” (2 Peter 1:20, 21) In this way the Bible was “inspired of God,” the Greek word for which is The·o'pneu·stos, meaning “God-breathed.” (2 Timothy 3:16) And holy spirit guided certain people to see visions or to have prophetic dreams.—2 Samuel 23:2; Joel 2:28, 29; Luke 1:67; Acts 1:16; 2:32, 33.
The holy spirit impelled Jesus to go into the wilderness after his baptism. (Mark 1:12) The spirit was like a fire within God’s servants, causing them to be energized by that force. And it enabled them to speak out boldly and courageously.—Micah 3:8; Acts 7:55-60; 18:25; Romans 12:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:19.
By his spirit, God carries out his judgments on men and nations. (Isaiah 30:27, 28; 59:18, 19) And God’s spirit can reach everywhere, acting for people or against them.—Psalm 139:7-12.
‘Power Beyond Normal’
God’s spirit can also supply “power beyond what is normal” to those who serve him. (2 Corinthians 4:7) This enables them to endure trials of faith or to do things they could not otherwise do.
For example, regarding Samson, Judges 14:6 relates: “The spirit of Yahweh seized on him, and though he had no weapon in his hand he tore the lion in pieces.” (JB) Did a divine person actually enter or seize Samson, manipulating his body to do what he did? No, it was really “the power of the LORD [that] made Samson strong.”—TEV.
The Bible says that when Jesus was baptized, holy spirit came down upon him appearing like a dove, not like a human form. (Mark 1:10) This active force of God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and raise the dead. As Luke 5:17 says: “The Power of the Lord [God] was behind his [Jesus’] works of healing.”—JB.
God’s spirit also empowered the disciples of Jesus to do miraculous things. Acts 2:1-4 relates that the disciples were assembled together at Pentecost when “suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, . . . and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.”
So the holy spirit gave Jesus and other servants of God the power to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
Not a Person
ARE there not, however, Bible verses that speak of the holy spirit in personal terms? Yes, but note what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman says about this in The Triune God: “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person.”
In the Scriptures it is not unusual for something to be personified. Wisdom is said to have children. (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are called kings. (Romans 5:14, 21) At Genesis 4:7 The New English Bible (NE) says: “Sin is a demon crouching at the door,” personifying sin as a wicked spirit crouching at Cain’s door. But, of course, sin is not a spirit person; nor does personifying the holy spirit make it a spirit person.
Similarly, at 1 John 5:6-8 (NE) not only the spirit but also “the water, and the blood” are said to be “witnesses.” But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
In harmony with this is the Bible’s general usage of “holy spirit” in an impersonal way, such as paralleling it with water and fire. (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8) People are urged to become filled with holy spirit instead of with wine. (Ephesians 5:18) They are spoken of as being filled with holy spirit in the same way they are filled with such qualities as wisdom, faith, and joy. (Acts 6:3; 11:24; 13:52) And at 2 Corinthians 6:6 holy spirit is included among a number of qualities. Such expressions would not be so common if the holy spirit were actually a person.
Then, too, while some Bible texts say that the spirit speaks, other texts show that this was actually done through humans or angels. (Matthew 10:19, 20; Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Hebrews 2:2) The action of the spirit in such instances is like that of radio waves transmitting messages from one person to another far away.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.
The “Helper”
JESUS spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper,” and he said it would teach, guide, and speak. (John 14:16, 26; 16:13) The Greek word he used for helper (pa·ra'kle·tos) is in the masculine gender. So when Jesus referred to what the helper would do, he used masculine personal pronouns. (John 16:7, 8) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for spirit (pneu'ma) is used, the neuter pronoun “it” is properly employed.
Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’”
So when the Bible uses masculine personal pronouns in connection with pa·ra'kle·tos at John 16:7, 8, it is conforming to rules of grammar, not expressing a doctrine.
No Part of a Trinity
VARIOUS sources acknowledge that the Bible does not support the idea that the holy spirit is the third person of a Trinity. For example:
The Catholic Encyclopedia: “Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person.”
Catholic theologian Fortman: “The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power.”
The New Catholic Encyclopedia: “The O[ld] T[estament] clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person . . . God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly.” It also says: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.”—Italics ours.
A Catholic Dictionary: “On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power.”
Hence, neither the Jews nor the early Christians viewed the holy spirit as part of a Trinity. That teaching came centuries later. As A Catholic Dictionary notes: “The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362 . . . and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381”—some three and a half centuries after holy spirit filled the disciples at Pentecost!
No, the holy spirit is not a person and it is not part of a Trinity. The holy spirit is God’s active force that he uses to accomplish his will. It is not equal to God but is always at his disposition and subordinate to him.
Jedidiah
[Edited by: Jedidiah at 11/6/2007 1:21:41 PM EST]
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2007 1:56:48 PM
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Blasphemy is against God alone, not against a thing or power. Further, sin (What is being forgiven here in this verse) is also a direct action against God. So in this verse if we attempt to say that a sin is against anything other than God then we've completely misunderstood and misapplied the meaning that the Holy Spirit is God.
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2007 1:51:36 PM
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The actual word used in this verse for "moved" is rachaph which means to "Brood over". It was not mearly a force but a thinking nd intentional act of self-will.
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2007 1:30:35 PM
Joh 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Again "He" is ascribed to the H.S., not 'it'
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2007 1:23:31 PM
Further elaborating on John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
The H.S. being described as
1) Sent by the Father
2) Separate from the Father
3) Separate from Jesus
4) Being described as a HE, not an it.
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2007 1:19:07 PM
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
How does a power / force have a will of it's own? It can't. The Holy Spirit (of God) is God as shown below.
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2007 1:16:56 PM
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
How does one begin to cause a thing / power / force to "grieve" ? The verse itself says it's God.
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PGM
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2007 1:14:56 PM
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1) The Comforter -- the H.S. is 'sent' by the Father meaning that he is a different entity
2) The Comforter is a "He". I find it hard to imagine a "He" being ascribed to a power or forsce.
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PGM
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Houston
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2007 1:12:50 PM
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
**How do you greive a power or a thing???? Inanimatye objects aren't greived any more than my car would be sad being parked under a waterfall of mud.
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PGM
Champion Author
Houston
Posts:9,070
Points:721,825
Joined:Jun 2005
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2007 1:13:12 PM
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
**Note, In the Greek the word "another" used above means of equal value but different. Since we know that Jesus is God, He is saying that another of equal value will be sent to abide with other.
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