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antiguzzle Sophomore Author Wichita Posts:237 Points:20,545 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: May 3, 2012 12:46:26 PM Ignore antiguzzle Report Abuse Ethanol Mandates Killing Pa. Jobs, Hiking Prices "Gas prices may have peaked nationally at $3.87 a gallon on April 9, but that is still more than double the price Americans were paying when President Obama was sworn into office. With such high prices you’d think oil refiners would be making record profits." "But you’d be wrong." "Thanks to federal government mandates, oil refiners are losing millions of dollars every quarter. As a result, two refineries in the Philadelphia area have already been shut down, and a third is scheduled to close this August. Thousands of jobs have been lost, and if all three facilities go offline, the East Coast will have lost 50 percent of its refining capacity." "Every gallon of government-mandated ethanol cuts demand for refined gasoline by one gallon. Less demand for refined oil means lower prices for refiners, and lower prices mean more East Coast refiners go out of business." "And don’t get excited about those “lower prices,” either, because you don’t share any of the savings at the pump. Measured by its per-gallon energy content, the ethanol mixed with your gas costs more than the gas itself. Ethanol helps you fill your tank for less, but it costs you more because it makes you fill your tank more often."

antiguzzle

Sophomore Author
Wichita

Posts:237
Points:20,545
Joined:Mar 2012

Message Posted: May 3, 2012 12:46:26 PM

Ignore antiguzzle Report Abuse

Ethanol Mandates Killing Pa. Jobs, Hiking Prices

"Gas prices may have peaked nationally at $3.87 a gallon on April 9, but that is still more than double the price Americans were paying when President Obama was sworn into office. With such high prices you’d think oil refiners would be making record profits."

"But you’d be wrong."

"Thanks to federal government mandates, oil refiners are losing millions of dollars every quarter. As a result, two refineries in the Philadelphia area have already been shut down, and a third is scheduled to close this August. Thousands of jobs have been lost, and if all three facilities go offline, the East Coast will have lost 50 percent of its refining capacity."

"Every gallon of government-mandated ethanol cuts demand for refined gasoline by one gallon. Less demand for refined oil means lower prices for refiners, and lower prices mean more East Coast refiners go out of business."

"And don’t get excited about those “lower prices,” either, because you don’t share any of the savings at the pump. Measured by its per-gallon energy content, the ethanol mixed with your gas costs more than the gas itself. Ethanol helps you fill your tank for less, but it costs you more because it makes you fill your tank more often."

REPLIES (newest first)Ignore Short Messages

gavinON All-Star Author Toronto Posts:562 Points:112,935 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: May 6, 2012 2:16:38 PM Ignore gavinON Report Abuse hmmm
gavinON All-Star Author Toronto Posts:562 Points:112,935 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: May 6, 2012 2:16:28 PM Ignore gavinON Report Abuse hmmmm
gavinON All-Star Author Toronto Posts:562 Points:112,935 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: May 6, 2012 2:16:19 PM Ignore gavinON Report Abuse hmm
Waterman66 Champion Author Colorado Posts:1,386 Points:500,495 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: May 6, 2012 1:38:59 PM Ignore Waterman66 Report Abuse GM1954, the calculations are correct. It is how we define things and regionally. To me, it is alcohol and always will be called that. This goes back to the days of working on race cars. We didn't call it ethanol. We called it alcohol. After 15 years of using that terminology it is difficult to change that perspective. This also goes back to the early mid-80's when the blend was called gasahol, not ethanol. The second point was that the author stated that one gallon of ethanol (alcohol) displaces 1 gallon of gas, thus reducing the refinery demand. If what the yahoo's claim of 10% or more reduction in fuel mileage then there is really no reduction in gasoline consumption or even an increase. I don't buy the reduction. I have tested this too many times when it was much easier to get E0 as compared to today. One thing is terminology was an issue in the post but not the calculations. I am not in the refinery business so I don't know about the lighter fractions of crude oil. This is something that I haven't heard of. One thing I do know is your reading comprehension sucks. I like alcohol blended fuels and always have but it is not the total answer, especially on the cellulosic production.
GM1954 Champion Author Illinois Posts:7,950 Points:131,880 Joined:Dec 2004	Message Posted: May 6, 2012 4:43:30 AM Ignore GM1954 Report Abuse "1) 1 gallon of ethanol doesn't replace 1 gallon of petro. More like 1 gallon of alcohol replaces 1 gallon of petro. However, it takes 10 gallons of ethanol to replace 1 gallon of petro since ethanol is 90% petro and 10% alcohol." It's easy to see that US students rank 25th in math and science, globally. Ethanol is an alcohol. One gallon of ethanol is one gallon of an alcohol. What you failed to consider is when oil companies blend ethanol (an alcohol) with gasoline, they can use lighter fractions of crude oil, that previously could not be blended into gasoline. So, ethanol actually extends the fuel supply by more than 1:1. For every gallon of ethanol used, it might displace 1.1 or 1.2 gallons of conventional gasoline. That's far greater than any mileage loss associated with ethanol.
Waterman66 Champion Author Colorado Posts:1,386 Points:500,495 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: May 5, 2012 5:29:04 PM Ignore Waterman66 Report Abuse Several things wrong with this article after reading it several times and thinking about it. 1) 1 gallon of ethanol doesn't replace 1 gallon of petro. More like 1 gallon of alcohol replaces 1 gallon of petro. However, it takes 10 gallons of ethanol to replace 1 gallon of petro since ethanol is 90% petro and 10% alcohol. 2) If you have to fill up more often with ethanol as the author states then that is lower yet since you are burning more total fuel with ethanol. 3) The east coast refineries need large investments to upgrade them. With brent crude (their major supply) being more expensive to buy, does the price difference to refine it since it is easier to refine and update costs offset the lower price crude from North Dakota and Canada and higher refinement cost. Probably not otherwise they would be doing the updating.
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,597 Points:56,710 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 5:41:01 PM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Silverstreaker....I'm glad you reposted "Antiguzzles Solution" again. I needed a good laugh!
Edpap Champion Author Pennsylvania Posts:4,485 Points:529,900 Joined:Oct 2011	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 1:35:48 PM Ignore Edpap Report Abuse You end up buying 10% to 30% more gas because of the reduced MPG with ethanol....long term that may mean you are using more gas...depends on how efficiently your engine burns ethanol.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,073 Points:2,243,015 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 1:33:32 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse antiguzzle, were you looking in a mirror when you wrote "You're so blinded by your misguided idealistic cause, that you've lost grasp of reality." Case in point: Antiguzzle's Solution
antiguzzle Sophomore Author Wichita Posts:237 Points:20,545 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 12:38:56 PM Ignore antiguzzle Report Abuse "antiguzzle, thanks for proving that ethanol is helping reduce petroleum imports!" Read the article more carefully. What you are seeing is only a microcosm of what could become a total economic disaster on the east coast thanks to government manipulation in the free market. You're so blinded by your misguided idealistic cause, that you've lost grasp of reality. Using your logic, we should just stop importing oil today and let all the pumps run dry. That would really fix 'em wouldn't it... sigh
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:12,073 Points:2,243,015 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 9:00:56 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse antiguzzle, thanks for proving that ethanol is helping reduce petroleum imports!
gamechanger2011 Champion Author Wichita Posts:1,597 Points:56,710 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 8:31:16 AM Ignore gamechanger2011 Report Abuse Check out antiguzzles posts about the price of E0 in Wichita. It was all a big lie. Now someone is posting bogus prices on Gasbuddy to make people think that the station that antiguzzle mentions is selling E0 for 3.49 instead of 3.59. I think that he has something to do with the bogus price postings. The station never dropped their price form 3.59. I think that we now have proof that the guy is full of bologna!
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,495 Points:755,860 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 7:47:32 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse jacksfan wrote: "According to every other bit of propaganda you guys have spun out there to this point, you claim ethanol use actually increases use of petroleum products. Now you quote a refiner stating that ethanol reduces gasoline use gallon for gallon." Excellent point.
jacksfan Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,556 Points:1,245,595 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 7:22:45 AM Ignore jacksfan Report Abuse "Every gallon of government-mandated ethanol cuts demand for refined gasoline by one gallon. Less demand for refined oil means lower prices for refiners, and lower prices mean more East Coast refiners go out of business." Come on Anti-Ethanol(TM) crowd. Get your stories straight! According to every other bit of propaganda you guys have spun out there to this point, you claim ethanol use actually increases use of petroleum products. Now you quote a refiner stating that ethanol reduces gasoline use gallon for gallon. Yes indeed, straight from the refiner's mouth: Ethanol does significantly reduce our reliance on foreign oil. Thanks for posting, antiguzzle. Welcome to our side!
chemist74 Champion Author Cleveland Posts:13,510 Points:2,395,980 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: May 4, 2012 5:50:37 AM Ignore chemist74 Report Abuse These refineries are closing because they are relatively small, old, inefficient and use more expensive types of crude. One can just as easily blame it on hybrids or increasing fuel economy of newer cars.