cheapmonkee
Champion Author
Portland
Posts:30,487
Points:3,199,110
Joined:Jun 2004
|
Message Posted: Mar 7, 2010 10:06:59 AM
If a home still can produce ethanol for less than a dollar a gallon and economies of scale would suggest a commercial operation could produce it much cheaper, WHY DOES e85 COST MORE THAN 2 DOLLARS A GALLON??? With subsidies on top of that?
|
phgga
Veteran Author
Atlanta
Posts:278
Points:166,850
Joined:Aug 2002
|
Message Posted: Mar 6, 2010 6:36:42 AM
looking forward to breakthroughs on non food ethanol
|
ss70
Champion Author
Detroit
Posts:9,930
Points:1,896,225
Joined:Sep 2005
|
Message Posted: Dec 30, 2009 6:12:48 PM
we need cellu ethanol as of yesterday
|
chemist74
Champion Author
Cleveland
Posts:13,510
Points:2,395,980
Joined:Apr 2005
|
Message Posted: Dec 13, 2009 9:50:55 AM
I hope they will be successful within two years but it is just as likely that two years from now they will still be two years from being competitive.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2009 6:08:04 AM
Emmit I agree with you lets remove the subsidies on the oil industry and then things will be even.
For once, you and I agree furball. Since ethanol is barely making it now with $1/gal support, can you imagine how quickly it would disappear when if all the handouts disappeared?
|
furball64801
Champion Author
Missouri
Posts:4,314
Points:113,265
Joined:Sep 2005
|
Message Posted: Dec 10, 2009 4:27:11 PM
Emmit I agree with you lets remove the subsidies on the oil industry and then things will be even. I havent seen a tank parked in a corn field but I have seen soldiers and tanks parked next to oil fields in Iraq.
|
goldseeker
Champion Author
West Virginia
Posts:19,755
Points:2,746,515
Joined:Sep 2005
|
Message Posted: Dec 6, 2009 11:57:55 AM
"The oil used to make the gas I buy comes from Canada & domestic oil so it does not need planes or tanks to defend it on its way to the refinery in MN"
That also is the dirtiest and most expensive oil in the world. A once pristine environment is history because of Canadian oil.
|
Cummins2500
Champion Author
Iowa
Posts:3,128
Points:752,375
Joined:Jan 2007
|
Message Posted: Dec 6, 2009 10:44:48 AM
furball64801: How many tanks and planes are in the air defending your cheap gasoline."
The oil used to make the gas I buy comes from Canada & domestic oil so it does not need planes or tanks to defend it on its way to the refinery in MN. BTW did you know that gas made with Canada crude also gets shipped to MO via the Carthage-Magellan and Springfield-Magellan pipeline. So its possible you get some or all of your gas made from Canadian & Domestic US crude oil. BTW they also ship gas, diesel to many the following states via pipe line: Alabama Florida Georgia Iowa Illinois Kansas Minnesota Missouri Mississippi North Carolina North Dakota Nebraska Oklahoma South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Virginia Wisconsin.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Dec 6, 2009 8:50:17 AM
"Emmitt I agree with you once the subsidies are removed from gasoline ethanol can go on its own until then a level field is required."
Lets see...
Gasoline is subsidized (including direct subsidies, tax breaks, etc) at less then a penny per gallon, and ethanol receives subsidies easily 60 times that.
Where is the level playing field?
|
furball64801
Champion Author
Missouri
Posts:4,314
Points:113,265
Joined:Sep 2005
|
Message Posted: Dec 6, 2009 3:39:16 AM
Emmitt I agree with you once the subsidies are removed from gasoline ethanol can go on its own until then a level field is required. How many tanks and planes are in the air defending your cheap gasoline.
|
emmettgalloway
Champion Author
Louisiana
Posts:1,906
Points:328,125
Joined:Jun 2005
|
Message Posted: Dec 4, 2009 11:19:27 AM
Cheaper ethanol sounds great. The government usage mandates need to be removed so that ethanol can stand or fall on its own. We can decide for ourselves whether we want to use ethanol or not. Freedom is wonderful.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Dec 2, 2009 2:04:08 PM
"Opinions aren't facts"
No but facts are facts, and the facts are simply stated right there...
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Dec 2, 2009 8:44:52 AM
Opinions aren't facts.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Dec 1, 2009 6:07:49 AM
"The only conclusion I can draw is that your "source" doesn't exist. You made the whole thing up. The entire statement is bogus. End of story."
The facts speak for themselves regardless of the source...
|
furball64801
Champion Author
Missouri
Posts:4,314
Points:113,265
Joined:Sep 2005
|
Message Posted: Nov 30, 2009 7:28:57 PM
Grumpycat gasoline is a losing fuel too, how many lives were given up so you could put gas in your car. See I can make my version of a losing fuel too. So you have your version and I have mine.
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 30, 2009 9:43:54 AM
"The only conclusion I can draw is that you can find no errors beyond the fact they mislabeled the school that did the "research"..."
The only conclusion I can draw is that your "source" doesn't exist. You made the whole thing up. The entire statement is bogus. End of story.
|
dtlb26
Sophomore Author
Omaha
Posts:149
Points:3,485
Joined:Mar 2007
|
Message Posted: Nov 27, 2009 9:14:14 PM
"The government didn't factor in ethanol fraud."
Do they ever factor in fraud?
As with most new technologies, lots of IP...I'm sure secrets are being kept. Failures and frauds will get leaked out.
|
CiVX
Champion Author
Oakland
Posts:7,146
Points:1,383,385
Joined:Feb 2009
|
Message Posted: Nov 25, 2009 2:44:50 PM
Burn that cellulose near the source and generate power for EV's.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 25, 2009 12:55:37 PM
EPA Put Faith in Fraud, Now Cellulosic Goals Falling Short - Very Short
Here's another case where an ethanol producer claimed they made a "break through" to get investors and the government to pony up money so they could line their products.
Guess what? IT was a fraud to...
"When the EPA recently issued a report anticipating 100 million gallons of cellulosic ethanol production in the U.S. by 2010, it was including 70 million gallons from an Alabama company called Cello Energy.
That's 70 percent of the total U.S. production from one relatively small company, per the EPA.
Bad Move
The government didn't factor in ethanol fraud.
Turns out the Cello was just found guilty in a federal court in Alabama of civil fraud for lying to a major investor about the state of its ability to make ethanol from grass and other woody, non-food materials."
The moral of the story is, ethanol producers will tell you anything in order to milk investors and taxpayers for money. Not one has returned a Commercial product despite the billions invested...
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 25, 2009 12:14:23 PM
"I said for the umpteenth time that I'd gladly point out the rest of the errors when you get the courage to share the source of your propaganda"
If there are errors there, then they are errors regardless of the source. The only conclusion I can draw is that you can find no errors beyond the fact they mislabeled the school that did the "research"...
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 25, 2009 12:03:32 PM
"One error is neither a sample nor does it equate to errors. Intelligence factor at work once again I see..."
I said for the umpteenth time that I'd gladly point out the rest of the errors when you get the courage to share the source of your propaganda. That reading comprehension thing's biting you in the butt again, shocko, or, at this point, it's probably safe to say that ignorance thing.
And how many errors will I have to point out for it to qualify as a sample that does in fact equate to errors? Wow! I haven't even pointed out the errors, and you're already backtracking. I don't blame you for not wanting to "out" your propaganda source.
[Edited by: jacksfan at 11/25/2009 3:06:12 PM EST]
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 25, 2009 8:54:49 AM
I'll explain it in terms you can understand Jacko...
A state employee and a welfare mom both receive money form the taxpayers.
The difference is that the employee provides a service for the money they receive, in other words they EARN it. The welfare mom does not provide a service to the taxpayers for the handouts they receive, in fact some of them abuse the safety net provided for them and become career welfare moms, never getting off the dole, always looking for new ways to get the government to give them even more money, and in general they become a burden on society.
Ethanol producers and corn commodity farmers are like those career welfare moms, taking handouts from the taxpayers without providing them a service, always looking for new ways to milk the taxpayer and staying on the dole in perpetuity...
I hope I have made this simple enough for you, it's kind of hard to dumb it down further then that...
[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 11/25/2009 12:00:48 PM EST]
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 25, 2009 8:22:41 AM
"Read, shocky, read. I said that's just a sample of the errors"
One error is neither a sample nor does it equate to errors. Intelligence factor at work once again I see...
Like I said, you saying your paycheck comes from the state of Illinois is like saying our milk comes from the grocery store. But I suppose when you're living off the taxpayer
I'm fully aware and have never denied that my paycheck comes from the taxpayers of Illinois and those who pay for tuition to the University. However, I prefer to work and earn an honest pay check from these folks, rather then accept welfare and handouts from the taxpayers, like the ethanol producers and corn commodity farmers do on a daily basis...
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 25, 2009 6:45:23 AM
"So that's the only error you could come up with? "
Read, shocky, read. I said that's just a sample of the errors and misinformation in your propaganda. I'll gladly post more when you get the nads to tell us from which radical group's talking points you lifted it.
"since you seem completely unable to grasp even the most basic of concepts..."
Only you, sitting in the ivory tower of academia, would struggle to grasp the basic concept of where your paycheck comes from. Like I said, you saying your paycheck comes from the state of Illinois is like saying our milk comes from the grocery store. But I suppose when you're living off the taxpayer, you hide behind whatever you can.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 24, 2009 8:56:32 PM
"You yourself said your lab does most of its work for private entities"
Yes indeed our lab does work for private entities. However my paycheck comes from the state of Illinois since I'm a Illinois government employee. Really Jacko, I'm really beginning to think you have some kind of disability, since you seem completely unable to grasp even the most basic of concepts...
" Just for starters, though, it was Iowa State University, not the University of Iowa that conducted the corn-cob study"
LOL! So that's the only error you could come up with?
[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 11/24/2009 11:57:28 PM EST]
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 24, 2009 2:45:25 PM
"My pay comes directly from the state payroll. No subsidies involved..."
HA! HA! HA! Thanks for the laugh of the day. And you expect to be taken seriously? You yourself said your lab does most of its work for private entities, entities that no doubt secure federal research dollars. I could care less who signs your paycheck. The dollars in part come from what you term to be "handouts" and "subsidies". I suppose you think we get milk from a store, too?
"Feel free to point them out..."
Sure, just as soon as you tell us where you lifted the propaganda from. Just for starters, though, it was Iowa State University, not the University of Iowa that conducted the corn-cob study.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 24, 2009 12:18:49 PM
"This from a guy who lifts a piece of propaganda from somewhere"
Is your definition of "propaganda" anything which reveals how dependent commodity farmers and ethanol producers are on welfare? If so, you've got it wrong. Most everyone else considers that fact...
"contains plenty of "incorrect facts". Thus, by your own admission, is not credible"
Feel free to point them out...
"Still having a hard time wrapping your head around the fact your university and your physics lab operates in part on what you define as "handouts" and "subsidies"? Since you say you're opposed to any and all handouts and subsidies, yet you're willing to continue to accept a paycheck funded in part by handouts and subsidies"
My pay comes directly from the state payroll. No subsidies involved...
I guess we can add lack of reading comprehension to your list of deficiencies...
[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 11/24/2009 3:23:10 PM EST]
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 24, 2009 11:27:28 AM
"Still unable to think for yourself"
This from a guy who lifts a piece of propaganda from somewhere and doesn't have the guts to cite his source? Pot calls the kettle what, shocky?
I noted in my last post that the statement isn't credible. You said a statement isn't credible if the "facts or correct or not" (which makes no sense, since facts that are not correct would not be considered facts at all). Your statement -- which you don't have the courage to stand behind -- contains plenty of "incorrect facts". Thus, by your own admission, is not credible.
"Still having a hard time wrapping your head around the difference between being paid to do a job, and accepting welfare in the form of subsidies I see."
Still having a hard time wrapping your head around the fact your university and your physics lab operates in part on what you define as "handouts" and "subsidies"? Since you say you're opposed to any and all handouts and subsidies, yet you're willing to continue to accept a paycheck funded in part by handouts and subsidies, I'd say that qualifies as hypocritical thinking. Not very credible there, shocky.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 24, 2009 9:02:44 AM
"You still accept your paycheck, I assume"
Still having a hard time wrapping your head around the difference between being paid to do a job, and accepting welfare in the form of subsidies I see.
"You've already proven you know little about the ethanol industry, why should we believe what you claim to know about ethanol research?"
Just going by the claims that have been made since the late 70's. Corn based ethanol production was just a temporary solution with Cellulosic ethanol production just around the corner at that point too...
"Farmers contribute millions of dollars from their own pockets to fund research at universities across the country. Just another example of how little you know about farming."
What does that have to do with the direct payment handouts?
"Still don't have the guts to post your source, huh, shocko?"
Still unable to think for yourself and be able base the credibility of a statement on it's merits Jacko? Need to have the OK of the Corn Commodities board and the ethanol producers before you find something "credible"?
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 24, 2009 8:54:55 AM
"How is it hypocritical on my part when I've already stated that subsidies, no matter who they go to are handouts?"
You still accept your paycheck, I assume?
"Never have heard of any Physics research programs that have gone decades without reaching their foals that still draw in 10 of millions of dollars, like you see with ethanol..."
You've already proven you know little about the ethanol industry, why should we believe what you claim to know about ethanol research?
"please explain how the Billions paid to corn commodity farmers in direct subsidies has anything to do with research?"
Farmers contribute millions of dollars from their own pockets to fund research at universities across the country. Just another example of how little you know about farming.
"Any normal, reasonable person can judge credibility on the simple basis of if the facts are correct or not. Doesn't matter who says it as long as it correct. Doesn't matter who says it as long as it correct. I know this goes against Commodity farmer and ethanol producers spin making..."
Still don't have the guts to post your source, huh, shocko? I guess it doesn't really matter, since by your own definition, we already know it's not credible.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 23, 2009 1:26:22 PM
"Yep. And I pointed out that your own physics lab has been researching specific subjects far longer than ethanol has been around"
Actually no. There has been no single project that we have investigated for more the 5 years or so...
"Completely hypocritical thinking on your part"
How is it hypocritical on my part when I've already stated that subsidies, no matter who they go to are handouts?
"Oh, and please do tell, what is the cap on the number of years a specific subject can be researched?"
Never claimed there was a cap. Simply stating the ethanol producers have made these claims for 25 years now. Always are on the "verge" of making a breakthrough just as they are looking for more funding. 25 years, still on the verge...
"Really? The next time you refer to federal research grants doled out to higher education as "handouts" or "subsidies" will be the first. And just because those funds are funneled through a private entity doesn't change the fact they are federal research dollars."
POET wishes to build a commercial (for profit) plant but first they want to "see the money". How is that considered "research"?
Oh and just to be clear... With must research funding certain benchmarks are laid out. Miss the bench marks and you loose your funding. Never have heard of any Physics research programs that have gone decades without reaching their foals that still draw in 10 of millions of dollars, like you see with ethanol...
Since you want to hijack this topic into irrelevant areas, please explain how the Billions paid to corn commodity farmers in direct subsidies has anything to do with research?
[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 11/23/2009 4:30:11 PM EST]
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 23, 2009 1:20:34 PM
"Nope. Never said that. All I said is that you can't determine credibility of a statement if you don't know who made it"
Any normal, reasonable person can judge credibility on the simple basis of if the facts are correct or not. Doesn't matter who says it as long as it correct. I know this goes against Commodity farmer and ethanol producers spin making...
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 23, 2009 11:17:55 AM
"Oh I see. IF a corn farmer or ethanol producers makes these statements then it's "credible", if they are not of the above profession, the they are not..."
Nope. Never said that. All I said is that you can't determine credibility of a statement if you don't know who made it. So, you gonna tell us the source of the statement you posted?
"Which I came to discuss, specifically these same claims being made for over two decades in order to receive further handouts..."
Yep. And I pointed out that your own physics lab has been researching specific subjects far longer than ethanol has been around. Completely hypocritical thinking on your part. Oh, and please do tell, what is the cap on the number of years a specific subject can be researched?
"Actually you are VERY wrong on this point."
Really? The next time you refer to federal research grants doled out to higher education as "handouts" or "subsidies" will be the first. And just because those funds are funneled through a private entity doesn't change the fact they are federal research dollars.
|
stevekr
Champion Author
Sacramento
Posts:2,381
Points:696,240
Joined:Jul 2008
|
Message Posted: Nov 23, 2009 9:29:25 AM
Let us hope it is economically viable and not energy intensive to produce.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 23, 2009 9:02:12 AM
"It's full of opinion, spin and talking points. Of course the source lends to it's credibility."
Oh I see. IF a corn farmer or ethanol producers makes these statements then it's "credible", if they are not of the above profession, the they are not...
Nobody ever said you let bias get in your way of rational thinking Jacko, which is your biggest problem...
"If you really need it spelled out for you: The original post is about cellulosic ethanol going into commercial production."
Which I came to discuss, specifically these same claims being made for over two decades in order to receive further handouts...
"You hijacked it by turning it into an unrelated discussion about research dollars, plant ownership and business models"
Research dollars are very pertinent, especially when these claims have been made for so many years, the hijacking seems to have been done by yourself when you started down the trail about University funding, something that has nothing to do with the subject AT ALL...
"It's hilarious -- not to mention asinine -- that when private industry secures federal research dollars you term them "handouts" but you make no such statement when your university system goes after the same dollars."
Actually you are VERY wrong on this point. I believe subsidies of any kind are handouts, regardless who gets them. The topics here concern ethanol (hence the category "Ethanol"). If the category was "Universities" I would be happy to discuss further.
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 23, 2009 7:14:55 AM
"Why does a source give a statement credibility or not? The statements themselves are accurate and therefgore credible, regardless of the source..."
It's full of opinion, spin and talking points. Of course the source lends to it's credibility. I guess that's why you're still afraid to post the source.
"How does revealing the handouts POET receives hijack the thread?"
If you really need it spelled out for you: The original post is about cellulosic ethanol going into commercial production. You hijacked it by turning it into an unrelated discussion about research dollars, plant ownership and business models.
It's hilarious -- not to mention asinine -- that when private industry secures federal research dollars you term them "handouts" but you make no such statement when your university system goes after the same dollars. Equally asinine is your belief that when your physics lab does research for private industry (which you've stated before is primarily what you do), it's completely unbiased, yet when another university, i.e. nutrient value of corn cobs, undertakes a study funded by private industry, its findings are useless. Is it because they are competing with the higher-ed industry for the same research dollars? Might affect your paycheck, huh? Credibility, shocko, credibility.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 23, 2009 6:01:39 AM
"Shockjock1961, no one ever said anything about Poet having franchises. What part of this statement did you not comprehend?"
What part of the business model state from your link did you fail to comprehend?
"Owner-operator, holding minority stakes in most of its plants, with local investors."
Is not an Owner-operator model indeed a franchise model?
|
MaggieMae07
Champion Author
South Dakota
Posts:28,160
Points:2,077,460
Joined:Sep 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 23, 2009 1:39:53 AM
Shockjock1961, no one ever said anything about Poet having franchises. What part of this statement did you not comprehend?
"Poet doesn't own every company under the Poet name. It owns a minority stake. Each plant has many owners including local investors and farmers who bought into the projects."
You can learn about their basic structure a number of places. Let me know if you need more resources.
Poet profile
Poet
Notice on the first page..
"POET’s business model is to invest in, develop,
design, construct, and manage ethanol production
facilities. However, the facilities are independent
limited liability companies (LLCs) owned by POET,
individuals, and local farmers that provide the corn
feedstock. POET employs the general manager and
on-site technical engineer at each facility. All other
employees are employed by the LLC. POET also has
representation on the board of directors at each
plant."
You might want to check your own "spin" and learn a little at the same time.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 22, 2009 6:55:24 PM
"Lets say one can make ethanol from corn cobs rather than corn grain. This means rather than the cobs be plowed back into the fields as fertilizer one must make up the soil nutrients with artificial fertilizer which comes from natural gas."
Better watch it GC. Logical statements like this will get you labeled as a radical on this forum by the ethanol shills like Jacko.
You tend to undermine their spin and in the process their paychecks, when you speak the truth, something they don't take kindly too...
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 22, 2009 6:52:47 PM
"All of it. If it's so credible, why are you so scared to share your source"
Why does a source give a statement credibility or not? The statements themselves are accurate and therefgore credible, regardless of the source...
"Shocky's ignorance about ethanol and the ethanol industry continues to shine!"
I still don't see any information that shows that POET franchises it's facilities. I do see Jacko is back up to his old tricks, spinning with misinformation when he has nothing credible himself to add...
"Thanks for another personal attack. Points directly to your (lack of) credibility/character. You're the one who completely hijacked the thread."
How does revealing the handouts POET receives hijack the thread? It's much more relevant to the topic then the EWG, don't you think?
|
GrumpyCat
Champion Author
Alabama
Posts:2,752
Points:809,895
Joined:Jun 2009
|
Message Posted: Nov 22, 2009 12:48:43 PM
Ethanol will not be competitive with anything until one can afford to make ethanol 1) without government subsidy, and 2) only use ethanol to power the processes used to make ethanol.
Ethanol apologists claim ethanol is renewable. Is not renewable if one consumes 80% of the energy content of a unit of ethanol by burning diesel and natural gas to produce that ethanol.
Lets say one can make ethanol from corn cobs rather than corn grain. This means rather than the cobs be plowed back into the fields as fertilizer one must make up the soil nutrients with artificial fertilizer which comes from natural gas.
Ethanol is a lose-lose situation.
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 22, 2009 12:40:35 PM
"What exactly, in the statement, do you find that lacks credibility?"
All of it. If it's so credible, why are you so scared to share your source?
"Really? I didn't know that ethanol producers were into franchising. Care to share where this information can be found?"
Shocky's ignorance about ethanol and the ethanol industry continues to shine!
"No, but POET is what the topic addresses. It's unbelievable that you lack thge intelligence to come to this realization, especially since YOU are the one who started the conversation, Jacko..."
Thanks for another personal attack. Points directly to your (lack of) credibility/character. You're the one who completely hijacked the thread. Typical shocky.
|
earlybirdMA
Rookie Author
Boston
Posts:85
Points:37,910
Joined:Oct 2009
|
Message Posted: Nov 22, 2009 7:33:05 AM
GOOD MORNIN LOL
|
goldseeker
Champion Author
West Virginia
Posts:19,755
Points:2,746,515
Joined:Sep 2005
|
Message Posted: Nov 22, 2009 2:23:32 AM
"Does this mean they will no longer be needing taxpayer money to lower the selling price of Ethanol?"
A moot issue for sure, as the government spends billions more to prop up the oil industry.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 21, 2009 8:30:17 PM
"BTW, Shockjock1961, Poet doesn't own every company under the Poet name."
Really? I didn't know that ethanol producers were into franchising. Care to share where this information can be found?
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 21, 2009 8:28:27 PM
"That's hilarious, you think POET is the only entity doing research on cellulosic ethanol."
No, but POET is what the topic addresses. It's unbelievable that you lack thge intelligence to come to this realization, especially since YOU are the one who started the conversation, Jacko...
"Yeah, but by who? Sounds like a bunch of Environmental Working Group, or some similar extremist group, BS, thus the complete lack of credibility."
What exactly, in the statement, do you find that lacks credibility?
|
Cummins2500
Champion Author
Iowa
Posts:3,128
Points:752,375
Joined:Jan 2007
|
Message Posted: Nov 20, 2009 8:41:06 PM
Does this mean they will no longer be needing taxpayer money to lower the selling price of Ethanol? I guess the government can then apply those billions no longer going to Ethanol towards the interest on the 2009 stimulus loan from China.
|
MaggieMae07
Champion Author
South Dakota
Posts:28,160
Points:2,077,460
Joined:Sep 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 20, 2009 8:28:13 PM
What is encouraging is that the research enabling ethanol to be made from corn cob waste will eventually encompass use of other types of waste. As many areas are struggling with disposing of massive amounts of garbage how is turning it into a fuel source a bad thing?
Why so quick to condemn every effort to bring new sources of energy to fruition?
BTW, Shockjock1961, Poet doesn't own every company under the Poet name. It owns a minority stake. Each plant has many owners including local investors and farmers who bought into the projects.
|
jacksfan
Champion Author
Lincoln
Posts:2,556
Points:1,245,595
Joined:May 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 20, 2009 7:26:24 PM
"since you still are having a problem differentiating between an organization which is employed and run by the government,"
Speaking of limited intelligence, this has absolutely nothing to do with my response to your post. But I guess you wanted to get in your talking points, regardless how irrelevant and ignorant.
"That's funny, I just checked and POET is not a farmer co-operative."
That's hilarious, you think POET is the only entity doing research on cellulosic ethanol. Clueless.
"I presented a statement."
Yeah, but by who? Sounds like a bunch of Environmental Working Group, or some similar extremist group, BS, thus the complete lack of credibility.
|
Shockjock1961
Champion Author
Illinois
Posts:20,375
Points:2,211,885
Joined:Apr 2006
|
Message Posted: Nov 20, 2009 5:49:00 PM
"Please, shocky, do tell, how much the higher ed. industry has sucked from the taxpayer and private industry for countless years of rehash and research"
Once again you see yourlimited intelligence fails you once again Jacko, since you still are having a problem differentiating between an organization which is employed and run by the government, and "for profit" groups (such as farmers and ethanol producers) who claim to be independent but who can't seem to make it in a competitive world without their welfare checks from the taxpayers.
|