N8KH
Rookie Author
Florida
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Message Posted: Apr 4, 2012 3:48:03 PM
What is needed is THREE radio check-boxes on the price-reporting tool. One is for cash. One is for credit (and debit) cards. The other refers to the main sign out front.
Many reports are only from the sign out front. Most stations put the cash price on the sign, when the prices are different. But some actually put the credit price out front. (Murphy [Wal-Mart] does this.)
Your servers will quickly learn, just from reported prices, what price the big sign represents. And you will be able to enter the price correctly in your database.
This is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for the GasBuddy reporting app and web site to remain useful. We need to know what price it is. Some people only pay by credit card. Some people would pay by cash, if that was the only opportunity to receive a lower price. In my area, you don't have to use cash; the stations with the lowest prices have the same price for cash and credit. But that is not true in all areas.
The GasBuddy app needs to be updated with this ability ASAP. Either that, or be overtaken by another app/database which will do it before you.
You'ld better get to work and do it, or lose your business opportunity.
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TxJeans
Champion Author
Tampa
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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2012 5:11:53 AM
kwzh wrote:"The difference between a cash discount and a credit surcharge is of interest only to psychologists and lawyers. The two situations are indistinguishable to the consumer, so this is not a reasonable justification for what the default should be."
Not to the credit card user looking at prices on GB. :-P
Still, the PTB at GB chose to change the game without notifying the membership which means the membership is playing under two rule sets. STUPID!
For me, I would rather be surprised by a lower price when I get to the station than a higher price. And, my cash back trumps the discount at most, if not all of the dual price stations.
Most of the cash discounts are only a few cents cheaper than the station w/out cash discount, so the credit price is often higher than most of the single priced stations. At least, it is that way around here. Most of the CITGO's are dual priced and they are currently 8 cents higher than my normal station.
[Edited by: TXJEANS at 4/2/2012 8:13:12 AM EST]
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kwzh
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San Jose
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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2012 4:37:10 AM
TXJEANS writes,
> Since the credit companies do not allow surcharges for CC
The difference between a cash discount and a credit surcharge is of interest only to psychologists and lawyers. The two situations are indistinguishable to the consumer, so this is not a reasonable justification for what the default should be.
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scoutmaster
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Pittsburgh
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Message Posted: Apr 1, 2012 2:09:13 PM
"I totally agree. It's not hard to add a box for each price."
Do you write code for a living, GetMaxCashBack?
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TxJeans
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Tampa
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Message Posted: Apr 1, 2012 5:04:36 AM
Of course the polls would not imply what what you might think for some people. Even the best poll will not have a perfect choice for some folks, but historically the polls on this site are poorly designed according to good design.
Huge is relative. I do not get to a safe ATM during the workweek. And, even if I did, most times the credit stations are still cheaper for me with my 5% cash back card. If I have to get off the interstate, I don't want to get off to find that I should have gone further down the interstate because this was a cash only or cash discount and the "low" price was not what I thought.
Since the credit companies do not allow surcharges for CC, the cash only is a DISCOUNT price and should be indicated as such. I think most folks are not carrying as much CASH and use DEBIT cards and CREDIT cards. I have not seen a pump that gives the CASH discount to DEBIT cards which also have a fee.
GB needs to spend effort on fixing this rather than Mobile App Point systems.
[Edited by: TXJEANS at 4/1/2012 8:13:54 AM EST]
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kwzh
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San Jose
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Message Posted: Apr 1, 2012 3:43:14 AM
> I don't carry CASH in large enough amounts to handle filling my tank
I've never considered a tankful of gas to be a huge amount of money.
> Have they done a poll on how most people pay?
Yes, but that doesn't imply what you might think. For me, the honest answer would have been "I pay with whatever's cheapest for me". Since (at the time of the last such poll) there weren't a lot of dual-priced stations in my neighborhood, I paid with credit more often than with cash. But this should not be interpreted as meaning that I would vote to have the credit price displayed! I would need to see the cash prices in order to make an informed decision. If the cash price is cheaper, then I don't care what the credit price is. (I do understand, of course, that other people have a different use case, which is why the "true solution" will have to involve dual display, eventually.)
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TxJeans
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Tampa
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Message Posted: Mar 31, 2012 8:36:34 AM
"If they would just put a big banner at the top saying, "Cash Prices," there would be a lot less confusion. "
Ah, but the rub is that folks no longer know what "cash" price means. There are those that use Debit cards that also incur processing fees. Many think DEBIT = CASH. No, it doesn't - it just comes out of your account more like cash out of your wallet.
I do NOT go to Cash/Credit different stations. I don't carry CASH in large enough amounts to handle filling my tank. I live on a CASH basis in my life, but I use CREDIT cards to manage that transaction. I use the CC as a financial tool and not to buy what I don't have in my budget.
Have they done a poll on how most people pay?
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GetMaxCashBack
Veteran Author
Trenton
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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2012 8:22:55 AM
I totally agree. It's not hard to add a box for each price. It would completely remove any ambiguity. I don't understand why GB doesn't just do that.
Also, then people can search specifically for credit or cash prices. The best of all worlds with a simple solution.
[Edited by: GetMaxCashBack at 3/28/2012 11:24:49 AM EST]
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scoutmaster
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Pittsburgh
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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2012 3:46:41 AM
"In reality credit card companies prohibit a business owner from charging a higher price to pay by credit card."
Very true but business owners are allowed to charge less to cash paying customers. Semantics at it's best!
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olive2trvl
Rookie Author
Philadelphia
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2012 8:38:11 PM
this is quite a complicated issue. some stations I see a discount for cash and for diesel and nothing else.
In reality credit card companies prohibit a business owner from charging a higher price to pay by credit card.
I own a business, I take credit cards, I can only offer a discount for cash.
Yeah, semantics.
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manaknight14
All-Star Author
Pennsylvania
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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2012 6:22:37 AM
Actually I've seen that vary too. It's rare, but I have occasionally had to use comments to indicate a different discount for regular than for midgrade/premium. One station I stop at has discounts on regular only. All this is before adding diesel to the mix, and I have seen a LOT of stations with cash discounts on gas that either don't apply or are for a different amount when it comes to diesel.
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gaspricepasser
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Miami
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2012 4:00:46 PM
What I meant was a box to indicate the cash vs. credit difference. In most cases, a given station will charge 2, 4 or 5 cents difference between cash and credit for all grades, meaning while the amount of the difference may change from day to day, the same difference applies to each grade at the station. That way, if all prices are 5 cents higher for credit, inputting that would solve this issue.
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manaknight14
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Pennsylvania
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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2012 7:49:27 PM
gaspricepasser: Unfortunately the consistent price difference between cash and credit would be an incorrect assumption in many cases. Within the past few weeks one station near me has changed its cash discount from 4¢ to no discount to 2¢ to 6¢ to 3¢ and back to 4¢ several times in between. The only way to be accurate is to have the cash and credit prices input separately.
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kwzh
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San Jose
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 10:26:37 PM
First we need the MSL flag to distinguish single-price, dual-price, and cash-only stations. (Should be trivial, if done as separate flags; probably, but not certainly, still easy if done as a multi-state set of radio buttons.)
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gaspricepasser
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Miami
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 2:22:30 PM
How about just an icon to indicate that there are different cash and credit prices. Most stations seem to keep a consistent difference between the cash and credit prices among the different grades, so a "cash" icon, with a blank for the credit card surcharge would make things easier and clearer.
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OaklandInvaders
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San Jose
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:01:25 AM
Provide a cash option. It's te only way to get cheapest prices than on credit
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CampKohler
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Sacramento
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 10:38:46 AM
If they would just put a big banner at the top saying, "Cash Prices," there would be a lot less confusion.
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yuckandmuck
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Worcester
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 8:33:07 AM
dashmon - just fyi that GB recently changed their price reporting policy. They now require spotters to post the cash prices (optionally noting differences for credit in the comments). This is backwards from what they previously required. Rather than re-hash the details or pros/cons in this thread, here is a pointer to a thread with some discussion:
change in cash vs credit price posting policy
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dashmon
Sophomore Author
California
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 8:04:02 AM
I always report credit prices, I have a message that I copied and can now paste when the stations have a cash price and a credit price. The problem with credit or cash check-off is that some stations have different cash discounts.
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kwzh
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San Jose
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2012 11:55:31 PM
Only if they've fixed it since it was reported, or if both the original report and the mod who acknowledged it as a bug were wrong. I'd bet that neither of those is the case.
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scoutmaster
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Pittsburgh
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2012 3:43:05 AM
Maybe not kwzh. Maybe the averages are computer using the trailing 9.
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kwzh
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San Jose
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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2012 2:52:46 AM
Another historical inaccuracy is related to the fact that we enter (USA) prices without the trailing 9. Of course, "everybody knows" that 3.45 is really 3.459 -- but that means that all historical entries, *and* averages computed from them, are off by that amount. When the graph shows that the average price is 3.524, it's really 3.533.
This was reported some years ago, and it was acknowledged as a problem, though I never heard anything more about it. I have my doubts that it's been silently fixed, so my guess is that it's still doing it wrong.
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CampKohler
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Sacramento
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2012 10:59:14 AM
OK, cents then. (I didn't know that the price difference [vs. percentage] was constant.) As long as the consumer has a single kind of price to compare, it makes no difference.
[Edited by: CampKohler at 3/10/2012 1:59:49 PM EST]
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DavisSta
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San Francisco
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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2012 11:33:07 PM
karazzi: You're exactly right. The historical data are by no means pure; they are actually a mishmash of cash prices, credit prices, membership prices, nonmembership prices, etc. The official policy stating which price to post has now changed at least twice (from cash to credit and now back to cash), and perhaps more importantly those policies have never been well publicized, so it's no wonder that we've had all sorts of different prices posted. It seems obvious that the historical data are already skewed, and I pointed that out to CC in my reply.
CampKohler: I agree that your proposal would be a step in the right direction, although in my experience the absolute amount of the surcharge (number of cents) is often more constant than the percentage, and is furthermore, I think, easier for the average user to understand, so I would favor giving the difference in cents or range of cents rather than percentages. It would clearly have to be an approximation in many cases, such as for those stations that have different surcharges for each grade of fuel, stations with surcharges on gasoline but not diesel, stations where the amounts of the surcharges change weekly, etc. It would also require programming changes to implement, although probably less extensive than those for a full fix. Still, my feeling is that if the programmers invest effort in fixing the problem, they might as well fix it completely.
[Edited by: DavisSta at 3/10/2012 2:35:23 AM EST]
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CampKohler
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Sacramento
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2012 10:21:23 AM
karazzi: Would a credit surcharge in percent showing as I suggested on the 26th (below) be good enough for you?
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karazzi
Rookie Author
New York
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2012 8:39:11 AM
Regarding the moderator's comment posted by DavisSta and the skewing historical data, I would say it is already skewed. Some people enter cash, others credit. Even the FAQ has flip/flopped on the policy of which price should be entered. So the data can't be said to be consistently one or the other at this point.
But in an effort to move forward and continue to keep existing data relevant, GB needs to decide if current data is cash or credit and make a new history for the other. Keep existing fields and third-party APIs in place, but add additional fields and designate them appropriately.
I prefer credit prices as I find it EXTREMELY more efficient to pay with a CC. Plus, my CC has cash-back of 5% on gas purchases and the cash price discount is never more than than that.
If GB decides all current data are cash prices and the default view is of cash prices, so be it. I would make an extra click or do extra steps to see and enter credit prices.
At the very least the Features section should have a badge for "Cash Discount" or "Dual Pricing" (or worse "Cash Only") so I know to suspect the good price I see is for cash and can take that into aCCount.
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mjp179
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Massachusetts
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2012 4:28:29 PM
I've believed for quite a while that GasBuddy should update the website and App to include both Credit and Cash prices, because it is disappointingly deceptive to go to a station based on the belief that the price is the Credit price, only to find out it is not and I should've gone to a different station.
This should be done by making it possible to either select Credit or Cash, or better yet make it possible to just enter the number of cents difference either by grade and/or for all grades.
It should also be possible by having check off boxes to indicate 'other discounts' such as with Member Card and/or Car Wash.
I'm less likely to go to stations that I don't know, if I can't tell whether Credit is more than Cash or not. At least under the old policy, Cash customers knew that they would pay that price of less...In the meantime, I will leave blank a gas price that is more for Credit than Cash, and only go to stations that I know do not charge more for Credit.
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CampKohler
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Sacramento
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2012 11:42:42 AM
SH: Not exactly. The object of this suggestion is not to do away with CC prices (since GB seems so hot on them), but to eliminate the need to enter/store them as such. The CS field would allow close-enough CC prices to be shown and distributed to whomever has the hots for them. So, rather than decrease the number of credit prices, it would automatically guarantee a parity with cash pricing.
Question 1: I think that the little slop that would result from the application of the CS to the cash prices would be of no import to CC users, because they are obviously paying a CS voluntarily without objection, so a percent one way or the other inaccuracy logically should not bother them. What do you think about this assumption?
Question 2: Does the media and other places being fed GB data also have the same hots for CC prices instead of cash as we are told drivers do?
DS: Thanks for the GB feedback. We would all feel a lot better if we could get this kind of info on a regular basis (vs. being in mushroom mode). If we know what the problems are, we can tailor our thinking to solve them instead of just throwing noodles against the wall to see what sticks.
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Scrapheap
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Virginia
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2012 4:07:43 AM
I believe this is suggestion is simply to provide an easy way to enter a comment of "Cash Price" without having to type that out. I can not believe that a check box that would automatically add that comment is such a massive programming change.
Another small step in the right direction that I do not believe would entail massive reprogramming would be to implement this idea.
[Edited by: Scrapheap at 3/1/2012 7:10:06 AM EST]
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kwzh
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San Jose
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2012 12:21:14 AM
Thanks for the info, DavisSta. I still think there are improvements that can be made in this direction *without* requiring a total rewrite, and that it's worth doing those anyway, but of course I'm speaking without having seen the existing code base. Sounds as though there could also be a win in refactoring it so that more of the code could be shared between different functions.
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DavisSta
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San Francisco
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Message Posted: Feb 29, 2012 10:28:08 PM
I think that there is widespread agreement that such a feature is needed, and suggestions have been made for years now that such a feature be added. Years ago, the GasBuddy moderators indicated that they were working on such a system, but it doesn't appear that they really were. More recently, moderators have stated that they cannot implement such a system without completely rewriting the code. Here's what a moderator wrote to me last September:
Unfortunately, the only way to implement a better cash/credit system on GasBuddy would be to completely re-write the website from scratch. It may seem like it would be easy to just add an addition field or a checkbox, but the way the website is currently designed, simply adding a field to enter cash prices would be inadequate as this would result in fewer non-cash prices, skew the accuracy of our historical averages, require a re-writing of the data feeds which are used on hundreds of third-party websites, and require the re-writing of our mobile websites and apps (all separately, since they all use different coding build specifically for Android, iphone, etc.). In short, as we continue to bring this up in GasBuddy meetings , we've realized that the only way to really effectively incorporate a cash/credit system into the websites and apps is to literally abandon GasBuddy as we know it, all historical data would become irrelevant, etc., etc.
That said, we have been rolling around the idea of a "GasBuddy 2.0", which is kind of like our dream "What GasBuddy could be", but this is far from being implemented. For the reasons mentioned, there just isn't the manpower to get this kind of thing done right now, as everyone has their hands full with several massive projects already - and we're still operating with a relatively small staff. I'd say this is in the "talks" stage. Ideas get tossed around and discussed lightly while taking coffee breaks, but there is not enough to actually start work on yet.
In ideal world, we'd be twice the size we actually are and we could start working on this tomorrow. In a realistic world, there is no way we can do this right now. Thanks for your patience.
Regards,
CC
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imahick
Sophomore Author
Louisiana
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Message Posted: Feb 29, 2012 12:54:31 PM
I agree add it.
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CampKohler
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Sacramento
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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2012 10:28:20 AM
If cash-only is adopted and prominently displayed on all lists, then there would be no confusion.
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boutmuet
Champion Author
Orange County
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2012 5:22:36 PM
GB really needs this issue and fast. The cash/credit situation in Southern California is getting ridiculous.
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scoutmaster
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Pittsburgh
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2012 1:25:51 PM
I think the issue is how to identify which price has been posted. I think there should be a requirement to identify if you are posting a cash price or a credit price and you would not be able to complete the entry until this was done.
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CampKohler
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Sacramento
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2012 12:57:16 PM
How about we store in the MSL the approximate percentage increase for CC use for each station, which could be updated from time to time. Only cash prices would be reported, with the Credit Surcharge (CS), in percent, displayed nearby. Then there is no reason to post two sets of prices, nor comments as to which price is posted. A big banner at the top of price lists would state, "ALL PRICES ARE CASH. APPROX CREDIT SURCHARGE % & DATE SPOTTED IS SHOWN." In smaller type it would state, "To report changes in the Approx Credit Surcharge and Date Spotted, revise the Master Station Entry for the station (10K points required)."
The weasel word approximate would mean that it applies to all grades, even if the CS is not exactly the same for each grade. It also means that the exact CS percentage may not be updated at the same times that prices are reported. Consumers would use cash prices and the CS for shopping comparisons. It's not perfect, but it would end the whole controversy once and for all and simplify everyone's life.
When the Date Spotted has aged sufficiently, or when the percentage has noticeably changed, members would update the Date Spotted field to maintain user confidence in the CS field.
If having to read the MSL for each price list display or use of an FSL would be too big of a problem, the MSL could be queried on off time and these fields would be dumped into a buffer list that would actually be used to make lists and FSLs (one entry per station in the system). That would mean there would be latency and so members might find that, after checking the MSL, that an apparently-aged-too-much or an apparently wrong percentage had just be updated but had not yet been dumped to the buffer. That's might be the inconvenience that we would have to tolerate for the use of a buffer. Added language in the MSL would inform users: "These two fields are read and transferred to the GB system ONLY once per day for use in prices lists and FSLs. If you update these fields, you may have to wait 24 hours to see it outside of the MSL." Or twice a day or whatever won't bog down the system. Or maybe the buffer could be updated by making queries whenever the MSL is not being used. Or do it piecemeal so slowly that it won't impact the users.
Bob's your uncle.
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2amy
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Fresno
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2012 7:49:38 AM
That would be great. Since I am on the road I use my mobile phone to post prices. I can get the prices done before the light changes but I cant get in what the difference between credit and cash is.
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CampKohler
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Sacramento
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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2012 10:51:13 AM
Hoorah! You get to wear one of these.
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yuckandmuck
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Worcester
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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2012 4:29:42 AM
GB is unlikely to add separate cash and credit entries for each station anytime soon. However, an interim solution might be to have a check box for either on the price entry screens, which simply auto-inserts a "cash price" or "credit price" comment into the comments field. This wouldn't provide the delta, but at least it would indicate which one (cash or credit) was entered, w/o requiring add'l typing.
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Gas_Buddy
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Maryland
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2012 5:13:39 PM
Having a cash and credit check off box (or a box for each price) won't make it any safer or much quicker to enter all this information you're talking about, which seems to be an important part of your original post. Are you, without saying in so many words, suggesting that maybe people don't post while driving? And use the application only when stopped? Or when they get to their destination when they have the time and are in a safer situation?
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