reb4
Champion Author
Chicago
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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2012 5:32:09 AM
Made in America: Trend against outsourcing brings jobs back from China
Here is the link Weaslespit indicated he could not post in link...
FYI, if the link just doesn't work after using the insert link, you can go to a site that offers to shorten the link. I usually use tinyurl.com Link
You cut the link in the spot provided and then hit enter, and the site will provide you with a link to use for posting...
There are other sites available, not trying to promote one over the other...
[Edited by: reb4 at 1/23/2012 8:33:18 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author
Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2012 8:17:21 PM
http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/14/10156162-made-in-america-trend-against-outsourcing-brings-jobs-back-from-china
Link function doesn't work, but this is a perfect article referring to jobs going overseas...Here is another source stating the same conclusions....
[Edited by: Weaslespit at 1/22/2012 11:20:53 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2012 8:06:37 PM
Exactly my point 14smoke!
"As for you saying you cant pay unskilled labor $30.00/hr, i ask you are your postal service workers unionized?I beleive they are.Oh thats right you dont need an education to slip envelopes in a mail slot.No you need to work in knee deep snow, slush,rain,and sub temperatures and smile.Maybe a dog might chew your leg.Are you willing to do this for $7.00/hr? I dont think so Bob."
Which is more vital, somebody assembling a bolt to a car (for one out of a dozen auto companies) or somebody delivering the mail? Exactly right on the working conditions too - UAW workers have it made. So I certainly agree that a Postal Worker should make more than a UAW member (Especially given the grief I see these people at the counter having to deal with on a day-to-day basis - probably from UAW members! - OK, just kidding on that cheap shot).
"So in my estimation Unions are very valuable for the working man.And i applaude any unionized worker who can get top dollar for keeping his/her job."
Completely disagree. Ever hear of problems at non-unionized plants? They even have on-site health care and daycare (i.e. Honda). Sure, in a negotiation getting top dollar is the goal, but looking at the strategies employed by the UAW, shooting your foot to benefit your mouth isn't the best move. Striking at plants building hot models to force the company to acquiesce to your demands is not to be applauded by any means. Not only does paying top-dollar for labor hurt the bottom line thus mandatory reductions in the work force, it also affects the retirees who see their coverages cut. The UAW can look in the mirror when it comes to accounting for all of those UAW members who have lost their jobs in the past 5+ years. They are not the only entity to blame, but they certainly deserve a large share of the credit for the mess the D3 were in. The Job Banks program is another key example. Pay hundreds of people to come in, sit in a room and literally do nothing. Wonderful.
"Without unions you will be paid peanuts and if you dont like the job dont let the door hit you on the way out."
Again, disagree. I don't work for a union facility (since you asked) and we pay very competitive wages - why? It costs too much to have to re-train Operators or lose salary talent to other companies willing to pay competitive wages.
"I hear Walmart is hiring,and they offer you a uniform.Lets see billions yearly sales, and not unionized and the pay is what ever your state minimum wage is.Yummy!If your a manager add $2.00 per hour.Can you live on $15k a year?"
And you think somebody working at Walmart deserves more? Again, this is VERY unskilled labor. A GED gets you in the door. These are not the jobs that support the middle class.
"As for you replying " i never discussed where cars are made" i knew you would twist it by me using the word "you" in general.Maybe i should have word it with the american public."
After a decade of seeing jobs go to China and Mexico, have you heard what the new trend is? That's right, jobs are coming back to the US! Not only is labor getting more expensive in those countries making them less desirable than they have been in the past, companies are finding out that quality also takes a hit when production is moved overseas or South of the border (in general terms, as you referred).
I don't think that all unions are bad, however I do feel that private sector unions have already seen their best days. I understand you wanting to back your union brethren and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I just don't agree with your assumptions.
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DasAuto92
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Montreal
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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2012 4:55:11 PM
The UAW/CAW was protecting the jobs of those 1000's of workers.Cars were built on sweat, and manual labor.Then robotics came in and replaced the worker.So when retirees took their pension they were not replaced.This was saving the D3 money,because robots dont call in sick,take holidays,or cost the company medical insurance.And because of this change,production increased.You dont need 4 guys to paint a car now,the robot does it.
As for you saying you cant pay unskilled labor $30.00/hr, i ask you are your postal service workers unionized?I beleive they are.Oh thats right you dont need an education to slip envelopes in a mail slot.No you need to work in knee deep snow, slush,rain,and sub temperatures and smile.Maybe a dog might chew your leg.Are you willing to do this for $7.00/hr? I dont think so Bob.
So in my estimation Unions are very valuable for the working man.And i applaude any unionized worker who can get top dollar for keeping his/her job.Because one of these days North America as a whole will be just another 3rd world country.Without unions you will be paid peanuts and if you dont like the job dont let the door hit you on the way out.I hear Walmart is hiring,and they offer you a uniform.Lets see billions yearly sales, and not unionized and the pay is what ever your state minimum wage is.Yummy!If your a manager add $2.00 per hour.Can you live on $15k a year?
Further more, could you please answer me this: Are you unionized where you are employed?
As for you replying " i never discussed where cars are made" i knew you would twist it by me using the word "you" in general.Maybe i should have word it with the american public.
[Edited by: DasAuto92 at 1/22/2012 8:01:39 PM EST]
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14smoke
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Birmingham
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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2012 4:42:04 PM
Listen, I do not dispute that unions did, at one time, serve a great purpose, but, as has been said, it's the unions that helped cause the D3 to get into the problems, financially, that they've been experiencing.
Cars with questionable build quality from the 70's into the 90's, including things done by automation, but, also things made and installed by human hands, so, that's a wash, and, yes, even though the UAW says they won't strike until at least 2015, how long after that agreement runs out that they strike?
My grandfather worked for GM, retired from GM and therefore I know how much the company is paying out for retiree benefits. While I appreciate what they've done for my Grandmother, who's still covered by retiree benefits even though my Grandfather passed away in 1998, think about it, she's been covered now for closing in on 14 years after he passed, and until the bankruptcy, it was 100% coverage too.
It's a double-edged sword, but, in pure financial terms, it hurts the companies.
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Weaslespit
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2012 1:58:53 PM
"Its bad enough the auto industry has already lost thousands of jobs, and plant closures.Please dont blame the UAW/CAW for these misfortunes,but put more emphasis on poor management for their poor design on the vehicles they sell as well as poor quality."
You can't be serious. The UAW was a MAJOR factor for the struggles of the D3 to make money on all of the cars they were selling (which then resulted in their losing jobs). You can't pay unskilled labor $30/hour and expect a company to be profitable. Sure, management deserves some blame to for some lousy product decisions, but to give a pass to your Union brethren? No.
"then you would still be rambling on at how Americas Corporate 3 are supplying jobs to 3rd world countries,excluding to take care of their own.WOW double jeopardy."
When have I ever discussed where cars are made? I could care less... Double jeopardy, btw, means you can't be tried for the same crime twice.
EVERYBODY in Europe makes more than comparable jobs here in the US. Things also cost more in Europe...
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DasAuto92
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Montreal
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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2012 11:20:54 AM
Your right it doesnt take education to turn a bolt.The Auto industry is one of the last unionized jobs in North America.
If not for the UAW/CAW the D3 would not only reduce salaries, benefits,retirement funds, etc. they could ship these jobs overseas at whos expense?Thats right the Joe Blow who you claim is making too much money.So what you're saying is you would rather see the D3 not be unionized,and thousands of jobs lost,then you would still be rambling on at how Americas Corporate 3 are supplying jobs to 3rd world countries,excluding to take care of their own.WOW double jeopardy.
Its bad enough the auto industry has already lost thousands of jobs, and plant closures.Please dont blame the UAW/CAW for these misfortunes,but put more emphasis on poor management for their poor design on the vehicles they sell as well as poor quality.
BTW the highest paid union workers in the Auto industry are in Germany.
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bluenvoy
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Nashville
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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2012 10:32:13 AM
They will do much better as soon as Obama's Stooges are out of there.
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Weaslespit
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2012 10:08:53 AM
"If the bankrupcty went through without the Government aide all these workers would have been rehired at half the salary, and loose all their benefits."
Just my opinion, but prior to all of this UAW folks were earning far too much considering what they do. It doesn't take much education to turn a bolt... This was a big reason why the D3 had such a hard time being profitable - years and years of the UAW strong-arming the D3 with strike tactics at plants producing hot-selling vehicles.
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probedude2
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Akron
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Message Posted: Jan 21, 2012 9:46:02 PM
Does it really matter?
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DasAuto92
Champion Author
Montreal
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Message Posted: Jan 21, 2012 9:37:44 PM
Why are many of you bashing UAW workers?Didnt they give up there right to strike with the bankrupcty till the year 2015.This gave the workers creditbility in knowing that the jobs would remain in USA,and also create new jobs.And also they share with profit sharing, which has been in place for years.Also with this contract it, it forces GM & Chrysler to invest in US manufacturing and provide good jobs for many Americans.
If the bankrupcty went through without the Government aide all these workers would have been rehired at half the salary, and loose all their benefits. Then GM could do what they want.
I guess those who comment are jealous of the contract these workers were able to ink with GM & Chrysler.I applaud them for what they got.
I too was a union worker for 25 years with Nortel.Beside having our quarterly increases we also had in effect a COLA (COST OF LIVING ALLOWANCE)which was integrated with the hourly increase.Many companies started to dissolve this feature, but we were fortunate to keep it.
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Weaslespit
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jan 20, 2012 12:45:12 PM
"As for the Government getting out of it, what you need to be worried about more, in my opinion, is the arm of the UAW that was given an ownership stake in GM by the government."
Agreed!
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14smoke
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Birmingham
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Message Posted: Jan 20, 2012 9:34:59 AM
GM is, in fact, repaying their debt, just not all at once, which would be a bad business move on their part until such a time as they were to make a profit big enough to be able to absorb that large a payment.
As for the Government getting out of it, what you need to be worried about more, in my opinion, is the arm of the UAW that was given an ownership stake in GM by the government.
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psm80134
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Denver
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Message Posted: Jan 20, 2012 8:47:02 AM
Until GM repays its debts to the Federal government, and gets the government out of an ownership position, I will not buy another GM product. And I have been a lifelong GM fan.
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StickySam
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Virginia
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Message Posted: Jan 20, 2012 8:34:54 AM
Yes I think VW will be the big player soon. However we must remember quality and reliability should be part of the equation, something Toyota forgot . Also there is no point being the biggest if you are still making a loss, as was GM before it got that little Government handout.
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geobmw
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Miami
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Message Posted: Jan 20, 2012 6:52:48 AM
not yet
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Weaslespit
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jan 20, 2012 6:18:53 AM
"GM was helped by the American People pumping Billions of dollars into the company, which a good chunk of it has not been paid back; not to mention the amount of stock the US GOVT ownes."
The 'good chunk' that hasn't been paid back and the GM stock the Government owes are one in the same...
"Please, lets compare apples to apples ...its not fair to say GM has made a come back if you factor in these things."
Total vehicle sales compared against total vehicle sales IS apples-to-apples. Each automaker had thier own challenges in 2011 - making excuses for one and not another shows a limited amount of knowledge...
In the end, it is irrelevant who is the #1 automaker in the world with regards to number of vehicles sold. GM proved that years ago but as DasAuto indicated, VW will probably take the title soon anyway.
[Edited by: Weaslespit at 1/20/2012 9:19:42 AM EST]
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ricebike
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Jan 20, 2012 5:43:30 AM
also, most of the people who bought GM vehicles were the ones who can afford it = CHINA!
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emtrob2012
All-Star Author
Myrtle Beach
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Message Posted: Jan 19, 2012 9:59:43 PM
well consider this first...
GM was helped by the American People pumping Billions of dollars into the company, which a good chunk of it has not been paid back; not to mention the amount of stock the US GOVT ownes.
Secondly, Japan was hit with a huge disaster last march that hurt much of their industries including auto.
Please, lets compare apples to apples ...its not fair to say GM has made a come back if you factor in these things.
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DasAuto92
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Montreal
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Message Posted: Jan 19, 2012 9:13:16 PM
Volkswagen will be the #1 car manufacturer within 2 years.
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