MertieMan
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Lexington
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Message Posted: May 11, 2012 2:39:13 AM
The same gas comes from them all, even Joe Blows fast gas down the street.
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BUSSY
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Dallas
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Message Posted: May 11, 2012 12:50:13 AM
When you buy toptier you are assured of getting good gas.
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DI
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: May 10, 2012 8:19:15 PM
To add to Sneakers55's comments, there's been much discussion over the years about why BP and (originally) ExxonMobil did not participate in the Top Tier program when their gasolines most likely met the standards. (Exxon, Mobil, and Esso have since become Top Tier certified.) Here are a couple of quotes either from correspondence from BP or that used to posted on BP's web site:
Top Tier Gas vs BP "Invigorate" (2010):
[quote]
I use a lot of BP gas and when I came across a BP ad touting thier product called "Invigorate" I emailed them and asked how did it compare to "Top Tier" gas. Heres thier reply. You can decide for yourself.
"Thanks for your note and interest in quality fuels.
BP's Fuels Technology group has tested BP gasoline with Invigorate and has demonstrated that all of our grades of gasoline with Invigorate perform as well or better than gasoline meeting the Top Tier standards.
Top Tier was a program started by GM and supported by a five other automakers. Ford (which recommends BP gasoline with Invigorate) and Chrysler and many other manufacturers are not members. The Top Tier program was created in response to one of the member's problems with fouling fuel injectors in certain models of their engines in the early
2000's.
To become a Top Tier gasoline supplier, the petroleum company or fuel marketer must submit their gasoline detergent additive to GM for testing at a certain dose. The applicant must sign a pledge to use that additive and dose for at least one year.
BP and some other major fuel marketers decided not to join the Top Tier program. BP's reason is simple: BP reserves the right to determine what goes into our gasoline for the benefit of our customers and does not want others dictating what to sell to our customers. We are confident that our gasoline will perform well in our customer's vehicles; in fact BP guarantees the performance of our gasoline in writing.
Thank you for your inquiry and interest, it sounds like you are interested in quality fuels. Why not give BP gasoline with Invigorate a try! It helps cars run younger for longer!
Kind regards,
US FUELS Marketing"
[unquote]
Amoco Ultimate, BP with Invigorate, & Top Tier Gas (2008):
[quote]
BP does not participate in the Top Tier program. BP believes that consumer interests are best served when the automotive and oil industries work cooperatively to determine the optimal mix of vehicle hardware and fuel standards. We believe our new gasoline offer is unique and all grades of BP gasoline with Invigorate exceed the Top Tier requirements with respect to detergent additive content.
[unquote]
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Sneakers55
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Houston
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Message Posted: May 10, 2012 4:22:03 PM
On Apr 14, 2012 12:14:13 AM, HeavyDuty_cache wrote:
>I have always wondered why BP didn't try to get on the magic list.
Top Tier is a standard where the main booster is General Motors. BP, until very recently, had a marketing tie-up with Ford.
BP states that Amoco Ultimate exceeds Top Tier standards. Since Top Tier additives have to be present in all grades, it may be that BP isn't compliant in their lower grade products.
It's all rather moot for my purchasing decisions because there's no BP retail stations around here.
I'll admit that I buy Top Tier to put in my Ford (despite Ford not being an adherent to the standard) and it's about as cheap as anything sold around here.
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DI
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2012 8:25:32 PM
Thanks, tropicalmn, for confirming that the "generic" gasoline in pipelines does not have an IVD additive and that it's added at the terminal.
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tropicalmn
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Minnesota
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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2012 9:58:07 PM
"BTW, based on the fact that Magellan’s “Gasoline Additive Specification” section includes “Gum Inhibitors and Metal Deactivator” and “Corrosion Inhibitors” but not one for “Intake Valve Detergent” (IVD), I don’t believe that IVD additives are included in “generic” gasoline."
Magellan generic IVD Gasoline Additive is available at all terminal locations loading gasoline.This would be the product normally used to meet EPA standards for gasoline rather than say Top Tier additive.
[Edited by: tropicalmn at 4/29/2012 1:02:13 AM EST]
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DI
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2012 9:18:43 PM
A couple of comments to expand on Houckster’s posting.
Regional refined product spot markets determine the daily price of those refined products (regular-grade gasoline, premium-grade gasoline, diesel, jet fuel. etc.) _in the pipeline_.
Since Minnesota is in the region served by the “Group 3” spot market, I’ll use that as an example.
Here’s daily price for Group 3 N-grade gasoline. Note that, unlike crude oil prices that you hear about in the news, which are futures (the crude oil price in the news today is for delivery in June), spot market prices are for delivery “on the spot” (today or tomorrow).
At market close on Tuesday, N-grade gasoline was $2.9443/gal. That’s for a minimum of 10,000 bbl. ( x 42 gal./bbl. = 420,000 gal.) for delivery via the Magellan pipeline (which runs between Minnesota and Oklahoma). You’ll note that those quantities are what you’d expect that refiners and distributors would be trading.
“N-grade” is the term that Magellan uses for conventional unleaded regular-grade gasoline. So _in the pipeline_, “gas is gas” — there is no “Shell gas” or “BP gas”. In Magellan’s pipeline, there’s N-grade, A-grade (conventional unleaded premium-grade), O=grade (commercial jet fuel), etc.
Here are Magellan Pipeline’s product specifications. So, if you’re a refiner and you want your products delivered via the Magellan Pipeline, you must meet the those specs.
So Flint Hills Resources Pine Bend Refinery might sell 10,000 bbl. of N-grade to Quik Trip in Des Moines. The product travels down Magellan’s pipeline to the Magellan terminal in Des Moines, where the Top Tier additive is blended in when QT’s tankers are filled.
QT might only need 9,500 bbl at the time so they can sell the 500 extra bbl. of generic N-grade gasoline (about three tank trailers) to someone else. Whoever buys it, will only get the Top Tier additive if they pay to have blended at the terminal.
BTW, based on the fact that Magellan’s “Gasoline Additive Specification” section includes “Gum Inhibitors and Metal Deactivator” and “Corrosion Inhibitors” but not one for “Intake Valve Detergent” (IVD), I don’t believe that IVD additives are included in “generic” gasoline.
[Edited by: DI at 4/25/2012 12:20:33 AM EST]
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Houckster
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Atlanta
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 8:54:11 AM
I agree with DI, TATTOO666TX oversimplifies. I suspect that what the refineries have done is to establish some sort of system that allows them to track how much gas each refinery puts in the gas distribution system and they can make a withdrawal from that system when they sell the gas to someone somehwere.
I can't say this is exactly how it works but it seems the most plausible way to explain how a company with no refineries in a particular area can provide gas to its customers.
The gas put into the pipeline probably contains the minimum additive package required by the EPA. I am assuming this is necessary to make sure that no gas is sold without the additives necessary so modern engines can use the gas. When the gas is readied for delivery to a retailer, then the additive package associated with the company is added, i.e. Shell's additive package is added to gas destined for Shell stations. Or the gas with the minimum additive package is delivered to the generic gas stations.
There are differences in gas. Less sophisticated engines may not be very picky but I suspect high quality fuels are going to become more and more critical as increasingly more stringent fuel efficiency standards become law. It is clear to me that if one buys cheap gas, one only forestalls expenses. A trip to the garage to fix a car's fuel injection system or even a few bottles of fuel injector cleaner will cost much more than that saved by buying cheap gas.
When people believe that gas is gas, they essentially distort the market by allowing generic retailers to charge almost the same as the name brand retailers. Around Atlanta, retailers like QuikTrip are selling gas at the best prices in town and their gas meets the Top Tier standard. Generic retailers charge the same or almost the same for their gas. How do they get away with this? Because a lot of people believe gas is gas.
One final thought: It is location and what the competition is charging that determines the price a station will charge. In most areas where a QuikTrip operates, for example, the prices at competing stations will change as QuikTrip's price changes.
[Edited by: Houckster at 4/22/2012 11:56:18 AM EST]
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DI
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2012 7:44:58 AM
Just a clarification to tropicalmn comment "Top Tier additive made by Schaeffer oil"
Yes, but according to the link to EPA's list of fuel additives, Schaeffer Manufacturing is not the exclusive provider of the Top Tier additive. Several other vendors produce it, including:
• Amalgamated
• DSG Power Systems
• Eastern Greenway Oils
Top Tier is a set of open standards. Anyone who wants to produce an additive package that meets those standards (and go through the certification process) can do so.
Concerning cost, using one terminal's published rates for additives (mentioned in my April 19 posting), we see:
• "IVD Detergent Additive charge on Motor Fuel is 14¢ per barrel." I believe that's the generic additive package that meets the EPA's LAC. Price-wise, that works out to be $0.003333/gal. ($0.14/bbl. * 42 gal./bbl.)
• "Top Tier IVD Detergent Additive for Motor Fuel is 25¢ per barrel." which works out to be $0.005952/gal. ($0.25/bbl. * 42 gal./bbl.)
So while the Top Tier additive package is almost twice as expensive as the generic one, it's still less than 6/10¢/gal.
[Edited by: DI at 4/22/2012 10:49:08 AM EST]
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gus8441
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Baltimore
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2012 11:33:47 PM
doesn't matter
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DI
Champion Author
Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2012 10:28:57 PM
Some of the comments posted here make one wonder.
As an example, tattoo666TX writes "Valero gets gas from who ever is the cheapest supplier."
While I myself have posted here that branded stations frequently use a common source, one wonders why in Texas (where tattoo666TX is from) Valero would be doing that. They are the largest refiner in North America with a daily production capacity of 2.9M bbd (vs, 1.8M for ExxonMobil) and, more importantly, have six refineries there.
tattoo666TX continues "Follow the gas trucks around some time. What where they fill up at and where they deliver too!"
What does that prove? Most tankers have four compartments. If the additive package is added at the terminal, why couldn't one tanker have a load for a Shell, a Valero, an Exxon, and a generic station, each stored in a separate compartment? Why don't you ask the driver to see the delivery slips?
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tropicalmn
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Minnesota
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2012 9:42:13 AM
Top Tier additive made by Schaeffer oil
Anything made by Schaeffer oil is expensive and they make some pretty impressive claims to justify there price. List of fuel additives
All gasoline is required by EPA to have deposit control additives.
[Edited by: tropicalmn at 4/21/2012 12:43:47 PM EST]
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travelzonecente
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Riverside
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2012 7:47:05 AM
Gas is Gas
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tattoo666TX
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Texas
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 8:25:10 PM
No, it does not matter. Valero gets gas from who ever is the cheapest supplier. Several stations all get there gas from the same places. At times you may pay 20 or 30 cent more per gallon then what you can pay at the station right next to the one you are at for the same exact gas. Any doubts? Follow the gas trucks around some time. What where they fill up at and where they deliver too! Shell around this part of Texas does not get gas from their own refineries. In fact, about a week or so ago, the local Shell where I normally get gas at was out of gas and waiting for almost a week for a delivery. They were being told all the refineries were out of gas. But all the other gas stations in the area, including other Shell stations were getting deliveries.
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Houckster
Champion Author
Atlanta
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 6:08:13 PM
PITHYOPINER writes: Yes, they do. I highly recommend Exxon, Shell and Chevron. Just because I own stock in all of them and I want my quarterly dividend checks to be fatter and fatter all the time. Anything you can do will be greatly appreciated.
____
Good for you but Shell is the only one of these I would use. Exxon has constantly opposed environmental initiatives and financed phony science to combat what we're learning about global warming. Chevron has been cited for human rights abuses in their Burma operations.
I'll use Sunoco because of their high environmental rating.
Chevron's Human Rights Abuses in Burma
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Houckster
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Atlanta
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 6:02:07 PM
GOUGENATOR writes: sounds like the hogwash similar to nitrogen enriched gas that Shell makes ,,just to part a fool and his money
gas seems to be gas ,it makes the car go everytime i put some in ,duh.
_____
Actually, I read in a chemistry trade magazine that Shell's nitrogen formula is necessary for direct-injection fuel systems because the environment in which the additive functions is much more extreme. Their older additive package did not work as well as it needed to.
On the surface, Chevron's Techron is able to work with direct injection systems but it isn't known whether the Techron that was sold in previous years is the same as what they are selling now.
Shell's Premium grade of fuel is different not only because its for higher octane engines but also because the detergent additive level is five times higher than the EPA recommends. Since more and more engines are able to burn premium efficiently due to having the fuel tables to support premium use, buying premium might be an option for some. I suspect most people will be satisfied with regular since Shell is a Top-Tier fuel. And at a price differential of 30-40 cents, you can add an aftermarket additive if you wish for a lot less.
I believe there is sufficient reason to believe that there are important differences between various fuels in the marketplace and those differences will become more and more important as engines reach higher and higher levels of sophistication.
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DerekS
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Seattle
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 5:41:34 PM
I think it is better but it is not very much better. Of course, the worse is bad.
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Norm1947
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Flint
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 11:48:12 AM
Gas is gas.
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gougenator
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 11:21:52 AM
sounds like the hogwash similar to nitrogen enriched gas that Shell makes ,,just to part a fool and his money
gas seems to be gas ,it makes the car go everytime i put some in ,duh.
[Edited by: gougenator at 4/20/2012 2:22:27 PM EST]
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PriceScout007
Rookie Author
San Antonio
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 11:00:17 AM
Are they worth it? That's like asking: Is medium or premium grade worth it? I don't think so. And if you think it is worth it, I don't ever want to hear or read about a complaint in reference to high gas prices from you.
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dawgcrzy
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Orange County
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 10:32:47 AM
Doesn't matter to my car(s). I've used Arco since the mid 80's in several vehicles I've owned and have had no problems.
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Gas_Eyes
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2012 7:26:53 AM
In Dallas, Quick Trip is the Top Tier gas station that is pricing their products very reasonably. They are all over the city, so it is convenient.
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PithyOpiner
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Stockton
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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2012 10:12:17 AM
Yes, they do. I highly recommend Exxon, Shell and Chevron. Just because I own stock in all of them and I want my quarterly dividend checks to be fatter and fatter all the time. Anything you can do will be greatly appreciated.
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Houckster
Champion Author
Atlanta
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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2012 9:27:55 AM
PACECAR68 writes: it makes no difference where you get your gas so long as the station is busy.
_____
I'll have to disagree on that. The whole reason for Top Tier gas is that the OEMs were paying for warranty work that could have been avoided if better gas had been available. They didn't develop the Top Tier standard for fun.
All gas comes from the refinery with a basic additive package specified by the EPA, then at the terminal, additive packages specific to each company are added. The gas that's sold at Papa Joe's Go-Juice store usually doesn't get any additional additives.
Cars are going to continue getting more and more picky about the fuel, especially cars with direct-injection.
And what about the price? Usually, Top Tier fuel is not that much more expensive than what Papa Joe sells. In Atlanta, QuikTrip is both the cheapest gas and the a Top Tier fuel.
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pacecar68
Champion Author
Oakland
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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2012 7:28:46 AM
gas is gas. yes, the top tier folks put branded additives in their fuel (e.g., techron in chevron and texaco gas), but all gas comes from just a few refineries in you local area. i stopped using chevron years ago; my vehicles cannot tell the difference nor can i.
it makes no difference where you get your gas so long as the station is busy.
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ProfDude
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2012 4:09:11 AM
I use diesel (B5 to B20 usually) and I presume there is no Top Tier equivalent for this. At least their website looks like an all gasoline product.
Several other drivers in my household use gasoline, but none of them (or me when I fill up their cars for them) have ever heard of Top Tier before now.
Since we (in the Chicago area) fill up at Speedway mostly (but not always) then no we apparently don't use it. My daughter that lives in a downstate university town buys mostly from a grocery store due to the lower price and doesn't drive all that much - so no again.
Based upon the stations participating, Top Tier would definitely be more expensive in the Chicago area than many other regional and local outlets. I would not refer to these outlets as el-cheapo at all.
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DI
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2012 2:10:19 AM
CaptDave2012 writes "Hard to say since many gas retailers (majors and independents alike) get their gas from varied suppliers."
It doesn't make any difference where a station selling a Top Tier-certified brand gets its gasoline, just that that the Top Tier additive package is added.
As a follow-up to my earlier post about additives being added at the terminal, here are two related items:
• Terminal Gasoline Specifications for CountryMark, an indiana farmers co-operative. Note the last row showing the different additive package available, including Top Tier.
• Refined Products Truck Terminal Rate Sheets for Enterprise Products. Their "Truck Terminal Additive and Dye Charges" shows the various additive packages and their charges including "Top Tier IVD Detergent Additive for Motor Fuel is 25¢ per barrel."
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CaptDave2012
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Arkansas
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Message Posted: Apr 17, 2012 10:11:37 PM
Hard to say since many gas retailers (majors and independents alike) get their gas from varied suppliers.
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DI
Champion Author
Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 16, 2012 12:43:52 AM
Gas_Eyes asks "Is it [Kwik Trip gasoline] not available in your area from Flint Hills?"
Yup, it's one of five Top Tier-certified brands available in the Twin Cities metro area (Kwik Trip, Holiday, Exxon, Mobil, Shell) and is where I generally fill up since they take competitor's coupons up to 10¢/gal. off and sell mid-grade at the same price as regular.
BTW, here are a couple of articles that you might find of interest:
• Kansas City Star: "Automakers, oil industry in fuel fight"
• USA Today: "Can discount gas crimp your ride?"
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EVH_1984
Champion Author
Massachusetts
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2012 12:32:41 PM
I always go for the cheapest price.
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RalphHightower
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South Carolina
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2012 12:25:43 PM
Top Tier gas is recommended for my car, 2009 Chevy HHR. Since I want to keep it until it becomes a classic, that's what I use.
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Gas_Eyes
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2012 10:01:42 AM
Thank you DI for the information. Kwik Trip is listed as Top Tier gasoline. Is it not available in your area from Flint Hills?
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DI
Champion Author
Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2012 2:23:46 AM
maxstar writes "I have not noticed any performance differences between any of the brands."
That's not too surprising because any degradation would be over time. Just to clarify, Top Tier is an open set of Deposit Control Standards created by auto manufacturers.
==
Gas_Buddy comments "a matter of whether or not you're willing to pay extra for gas."
A popular misconception. I virtually always buy a Top Tier-certified brand so I've got a "Top Tier" Gas Buddy search set up. Checking it, the current Twin Cities average price is $3.661/gal. Stations selling Top Tier brands range from $3.599/gal. to $3.799/gal with the midpoint being just about around the overall Twin Cities average.
The lowest priced Top Tier stations are a Mobil and Shell. Only eight other stations (out of about 900) are lower than them ($3.579/gal. and $3.589.gal.) and half of those are membership dept. stores (Costco and Sam's Club).
==
Gas_Eyes wonders "If it is all the same gas from the terminal, when do they add in he additives?"
It'a added at the terminal. It is a common industry practice to use the same _base_ gasoline. In the Twin Cities, we have two refineries: Flint Hills Resources and Northern Tier Energy. No Shell, ExxonMobil, Marathon, or Sinclair refineries. So where do they get their supply? Probably from Flint Hills Resources (since it's the 10th largest refinery in the USA).
All gasoline must contain the EPA Lowest Additive Concentration (LAC). In fact that's what caused several auto manufacturers to develop the Top Tier standards. When the EPA LAC went into effect, many stations dropped their additive levels to the EPA minimum which caused manufacturers to start seeing problems (primarily clogged fuel injectors).
Some stations have additional additive package(s) added at the terminal. That's where the Top Tier additive package is added as well as any proprietary additive packages.
Don't believe me? Go to slide 12 of this Flint Hills Resources presentation about their Pine Bend Refinery:
[quote]
Gasoline Blending:
• Each individual refinery gasoline product is sent to a large storage tank.
• None of the individual gasoline products meet the specifications for customer use.
• The individual refinery gasoline products are then combined in a manor that would satisfy the specifications for the finished customer.
• This product is then stored in another large tank where it is certified for sale to the final customer.
[unquote]
[Edited by: DI at 4/15/2012 5:25:19 AM EST]
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Gas_Eyes
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2012 1:50:15 PM
If it is all the same gas from the terminal, when do they add in he additives?
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MertieMan
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2012 6:04:30 AM
Take a trip to your local terminal where gasoline is loaded and you will see that basically all gasoline for your area comes from that one terminal, therefore it is the same gasoline regardless of the so called brand name. I have known countless drivers in my business and they all say the same thing, there is no difference in any of it. I have had stations to tell me that they didn't have ethanol in their gas while the tanker was unloading and the driver said all gas in this area has ethanol, no matter what a clerk behind the counter tells you. Clerks know very little if anything about the product to which they are selling. After all, they are minimum wage employees most of the time.
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OceansidePoms
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Massachusetts
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2012 11:50:26 PM
I go for the lowest prices, regardless. & Try to support small business, if their prices are supporting my wallet... However, I will not go to a station if it looks sketchy... But I have heard just as many bad stories about "Gas Nightmares" etc... from these "Top Tier" stations as well... So, Lower prices it is for me...
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HeavyDuty_cache
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Omaha
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2012 10:14:13 PM
There are a lot of top tier brands that are regional stations such as MFA & Holiday.
I have always wondered why BP didn't try to get on the magic list.
Most of the time where I drive the "Top Tier" stations are the same as the non top tier brands.
[Edited by: HeavyDuty_cache at 4/14/2012 1:16:25 AM EST]
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Gas_Buddy
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Maryland
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2012 5:22:25 PM
Are they worth it? Actually the question is: Do you think it's worth it? It's strictly a matter of personal opinion, and a matter of whether or not you're willing to pay extra for gas.
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Gas_Eyes
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2012 10:40:55 AM
BUSSY: I was surprised to see Quick Trip on the list. They are also pretty competitive.
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maxstar
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Chicago
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2012 10:28:02 AM
I do not buy from the "generic" brands, other than that I will buy from any of the others depending on price. I have not noticed any performance differences between any of the brands.
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Sneakers55
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Houston
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2012 10:24:44 AM
Top Tier is superior in the test lab. Whether or not it results in superior performance on the road is not as clear.
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BUSSY
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2012 10:00:43 AM
QT (QuikTrip) is also TopTier and my favorite station.
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Eugene_C
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Columbus
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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2012 9:09:07 AM
I think it does matter. Particularly in my older car. I stick with generally pretty good gas.
(You forgot Sunoco)
[Edited by: Eugene_C at 4/13/2012 12:09:38 PM EST]
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